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to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

953 replies

ReallyTired · 22/04/2013 09:12

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

OP posts:
Squarepebbles · 22/04/2013 19:38

Sorry no excuse,their generation calculated wrong so their generation should help to put right.Not seeing why the youngsters should put their mess right oh and have buggar all to prepare for their own retirement.Confused

GrowSomeCress · 22/04/2013 19:42

squarepebbles what, every single pensioner specifically "calculated wrong"? Hmm

Squarepebbles · 22/04/2013 19:44

Things CB is going, further education is not now free and there are no grants to help with living expenses(the loan threshold of which is very low),NHS is being dismantled(we can't afford to maintain the ever increasing elderly in the way we have done), our pension(state let alone private) will be non existent unless we start paying a shed load more,we've got to work waaaay longer,we'll never have WFA,free bus passes or TV licenses......

It really is going to be shit when we retire.The type of retirement todays pensioners expect is la,la land.We can't afford it.

Debs75 · 22/04/2013 19:47

Personally I can't see pensioners being taxed more for about 30-40 years and that is barring a huge world war.
The pensioners we have now and had since 20 years or so ago had made a huge sacrifice from fighting in the wars and times were incredibly tough.

Quite rightly you hear pensioners say 'we fought a war for you' when cuts are mentioned. Even if they didn't physically fight they went through a horrendous time.

When I retire I will have lived through some poverty and through recessions but hopefully I won't of had to see my loved ones made to go off to war and our lives turned upside down.

Squarepebbles · 22/04/2013 19:48

Collectively they didn't pay enough,why should we fund that whilst having what they had and we have paid for removed?

If we're not having universal CB,free uni etc which many of us have paid for why should they keep their unaffordable perks.

If we have to smell the coffee so should they.Why should one section of society live in a bubble whilst everybody else has to face the music?

Salbertina · 22/04/2013 19:50

Rubbish! (Or only if there were lots of 3 yr old soldiers!)

Uk pensioners today must be just about the most privileged generation ever born, they are the baby-boomers not war veterans (it was over by '45 btw!)

Salbertina · 22/04/2013 19:51

Sorry- that was to Debs
Square, agree!

Squarepebbles · 22/04/2013 19:53

Errr Debs my 80 year old fil didn't fight any wars (he was 12 when war ended)and neither did my 70 year old dad who was 2.

Plenty of youngsters today are having their legs blown off though in wars we're fighting.

CloudsAndTrees · 22/04/2013 19:58

By that logic Squares, each and every one of us that is of working age today is to blame for the cuts to today's social services, and today's disability benefits? We are also to blame for whatever happens thirty, forty, fifty years from now, despite not having a crystal ball that guarantees it can predict the future. So, you're happy to take that personal responsibility are you? Confused

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 22/04/2013 19:59

Square,

fundamentally, we agree. I see a bleak future for my children,and grandchildren. I genuinely cannot see how, with an increasingly aged population,and fewer workers/taxpayers , the sums will add up. But we are where we are etc. If you accept that stopping WFA,bus travel and free tv licences will not address the problem, what,given that pensioners are subject to exactly the same tax regime as the rest of us, do you propose doing. Because if you do accept that the removal of these perks will not address the problem,any such removal would just be done out of spite.....

Squarepebbles · 22/04/2013 19:59

Oh and I hate to say it but a lot of the terrorism worries we have today are caused by shite post war decisions which we are now having to pay for(even though we weren't even born) on top of everything else.

CloudsAndTrees · 22/04/2013 20:00

Plenty of youngsters today are having their legs blown off though in wars we're fighting.

But clearly, that's our fault if we are able to vote, even if we were vehemently opposed to the war.

Viviennemary · 22/04/2013 20:05

Wealthy pensioners pay tax at the same rate as everyone else. Except for a tiny bit extra tax free allowance for I think the over 75's. Which is being phased out anyway. Are people suggesting pensioners should be taxed at a higher rate. Pensioners don't pay national insurance. A lot of people don't pay NI.

Squarepebbles · 22/04/2013 20:09

I think over a threshold they should pay NI seeing as they're the main cost to the NHS oh and benefits should go and only be given to the poor(it wouldn't sort out the entire mess but it would help). We're in no position to chuck any sums of money away.

grimbletart · 22/04/2013 20:10

Each generation has it hard in a different way.

My father and mother's generation hardness was the years of the depression, no work, no benefits, real starvation and then war and death for millions, fairly high childhood mortality and pretty much zero opportunities for women to earn and lift families out of poverty as married women were usually forced to give up their jobs on marriage our etc.

My generation - pre baby boom (born during the war) had other hardships - spending childhood nights in bomb shelters with parents wondering if we would all be alive come the morning, no NHS - everything had to be paid for over and above taxes, rationing, rudimentary antibiotics and vaccines only in the 40s/50s (my primary class alone at school had one pupil die from polio, one in leg irons from polio and another blinded by measles), bomb sites for playgrounds, only 10 per cent of population could get a place at university, no maternity leave, flexible working or child care, only a one-off small maternity grant, little disabilities help, no equal opportunities so huge pay gaps etc., no rights for women to rent, have mortgages loans without male guarantor (until the late 70s).Now, any savings we have made for care in our old age so we are not a burden on the state are rapidly being eroded by rubbish interest rates.

For younger people the hardships are poor job prospects, expensive education leading to debt, ultra high house prices and general cost of living, prospect of having to work into their 70s etc.

Each generation suffers or gains in its own way I think.

For myself as a well-off (though not wealthy) pensioner I am glad that the inbuilt 'save for the future attitude' that prevailed in my generation is enabling me to help my adult children and even though I have just retired after a working life of nearly 50 years I don't think pensioners should be exempt from cuts as we all have to make sacrifices. However, cuts will mean less available to help my family and less available for my dotage - thus inevitably I will probably cost the taxpayer more than I would have done were I to be allowed to keep more of what I spent 50 years earning.

But I dislike this "we had it harder than you" attitude. It's not a competition.

Debs75 · 22/04/2013 20:12

Ok so my maths may be wrong but 20 years ago we had a huge amount of war pensioners and pensioners are 65up till death so if you are in your 90's you were around in the war. I do think that has contributed to this feeling in govt and to some of the public that pensioners can't be touched. And remember there was a national conscription then, now going in the armed forces is a choice as such.

And I do agree that the govt should tax wealthy pensioner but seen as it has just lowered tax for the wealthy workers I can't see it taxing pensioners

poppyknot · 22/04/2013 20:13

Not read the whole thread yet (will do as the topic fascinates) but what gets me is that these large demographic groups are bestowed with some sort of moral rectitude of hard work either in the past or now.The pensioners! The striving families!Or turpitude in the case of others. Sorry, major bug bear. Will go and read the thing now....

FasterStronger · 22/04/2013 20:14

the govt should tax wealthy pensioners well it does already so what is the problem?

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 22/04/2013 20:20

" they should pay NI seeing as they're the main cost to the NHS oh and benefits should go and only be given to the poor"

So, spite (on the perks), and a system where the heaviest users of the NHS pay more......

I'm sure parents of sick and disabled children would be delighted with that, Squares....

Oh, you mean you just meant elderly NHS users.......... Wink

Sparrowp · 22/04/2013 20:24

Pension age people dont pay any NI, even if they are earning loadsa muny.
Thats 12% less tax than the average working age person.

Younger working age people may be paying back tuition fees.
Thats 9% more tax.

Thats a 21% difference so far!

If people have paid off their mortgage, its an even bigger difference in disposable income.

Pensioner's pensions are not means tested. Support for working age people is means tested down to nothing.
The pension is double the value of working age benefits such as the jobseekers allowance.

etc, etc.

Angry
ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 22/04/2013 20:26

Poppyknot, but pensioners who have maybe worked,saved and striven for maybe 50 years genuinely do have some some sort of moral rectitude, surely? Not saying "hard working families" (God I hate that trite crappy phrase) don't, but pensioners definitely do IYSWIM?

Salbertina · 22/04/2013 20:29

Grimble - i hear what you're saying about different kinds of difficult (tho many of us now, me for instance, also went to uni when only 10% got in! Expansion is relatively recent)

Problem is successive govs have protected pensioners while targeting other groups for cuts. This does breed resentment/competition.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 22/04/2013 20:30

"Younger working age people may be paying back tuition fees.
Thats 9% more tax.

Thats a 21% difference so far!"

Erm, lots of different groups in society may be paying lots of things. Perhaps you would like to factor in care costs the elderly may be paying into your notional tax computation.....Hmm

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 22/04/2013 20:33

" Support for working age people is means tested down to nothing"

That's because,in theory, unlike most pensioners,they could uhh, get a job?

NiceTabard · 22/04/2013 20:34

Not read thread

Wanted to point out not all wealthy pensioners are tories though.