to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

[ReallyTired]

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

Much higher tax rate for very top earners would do it I think. Over £250,000 per annum perhaps and that would include 'platinum pensioners'.I would , however, leave people's homes alone as long as they can afford them.If those in social housing want to move they should be helped but not forced.Maybe take WFA from those pensioners earning over £25,000 per couple and take all CB from families with only one working parent and a net income of over £50,000 pa.

All sounds reasonable bar the CB.

I think it's absolutely reasonable that pensioners should move if they are in council properly and are remaining in a house which far exceeds their needs. However this is of course dependent on there being smaller housing being available. The idea of social housing being a 'house for life' is just not sustainable. Of course, you can't force home owners to sell up.

Very few pensioners have high incomes so just taxing those on high incomes does not yield very much.

The main problem is that when state pensions were set up people retired and drew them for about 3 - 5 years on average. Now they often draw them for 30 years. We just cannot afford that. My retirement age is nearly 70 and I will anyway most likely work until I die.

I don't think this Government should have said it would ring fence pensioners, the NHS and education from the cuts. We have a very big state at the moment - 40% of GDP and it could be cut back to 30% but not if we ring fence those 3 areas from cuts.

Ok square I think we are approaching a rapport on this one [hand shaking emoticon].I'll give you your CB if you let us keep our tv licences [over 75's].

But yes I do agree with Janey having friends both working who have had to move young children 3 times recently.No social housing but no reliable long term rentals either.

Not sure about funding care if somebody is property rich but cash poor.

God the current situations a mess.

How about we scrap wfa and bus passes, tv licences and just give the poorer pensions who get pension credit on top of their state pension more thenmaybe slightly higher rate pension credit when they over 75?

surly thats simple and cuts back on costs.

Every pensioner could then get state pension
private pension if they have one-many do.
pension credit-means tested extra targeted money to focus on those who really need the help.

Pensioners should not be excempt from social housing cap.

If they own then they cant be penalised some young and old benefited from the property ladder its the peoplein early 30,s 20,s that wont get on ladder and pay extortionate rent my landlords wealthy pensioner owns 4houses.

I would much rather seen cb stopped at 2 and I have 3kids.

When I went to uni 1st year with fees it was £1200 a year now its 9000!

A lot of parents recently talk about cost school travel at seniors school uses not funded.

I would hate to have child leaving school now as honesty dont know what to suggest.

So many jobs that dident requite degrees now do.

most jobs out there are temporary min wage part timelow and unskilled its why we have blooming tax credits .

I have worked from age 15, worked throughout uni had 2jobs as my parents were not wealthy worked fulltime then to age 28,went back fulltime after 1st child taken 4year career break.

husband works fulltime long hours.

we dont own as cant afford to save
Hubby does not have a current pension.
hes always workedprivate sector so have I.

No ones talking bout changes to council tax recently.
students no longer exept so if you have childliving at homeas in uni or college then they or you have topay more tax as more adults living in the house.

Lots people live at home as cant afford own place.

someone said my parents lived social housing whilst saving deposit its near impossible for working family in private sector to get social housing so they stuck in private sector paying daft rents as most landlords expect tennant to pay all their mortgage supporting their retirement.

if my child does go uni then they come out 27k worse off more with living loan.

How are they then suppost to

pass driving test-very expensive and run a car insurance extortionate for younger people.

pay back their loan
pay a pension
start saving for a deposit to buy a house.
maybe get married
have kids
pay childcare costs

They cannot afford everything previous generations have taken for granted.

not all pensioners wealthy most baby boomers are.

interest rates were much higher in the 1980s recession.

inflation quite high right now ,not that bank of england care.

utilities water and energy were not as pricey.

Most months we scrape by apart from cb which we just about keep we get by.

no pasties,ipads or large amounts of meat here.

recently spoke to local counciller about fundraising he suggested anything that attracts elderly as they have the most income.

I live next door to 2wealthy pensions who whinge a lot and read daily mail. They both have newish cars.always at bus stop with their free bus passes cat move for oaps whilst imwalking my kids miles as cant afford the extorionate bus travel but so nice to hear about their many day trips and holidays and see the many home inprovements they making.

Hubbys last job had healthcare then that got taxed 700quid a year we never used it but if we had I guess we be saving nhs money,

Im totally radical and think we need to change way we do things

make education cheap or free
make childcare more affordable
make sure theres enough housing and schools to match.
give poorer kids free brekkie club, free homework club, subsidise or free holidays that way to improve child poverty rather than throwing extra money at the parents makeeverything more targeted to people that need it poorer pensions, kids in poverty.

I also think we need to rethink nhs I dont think its amazing.
If a reasonable health insurance was affordable and gave us better care rather than shit levels of care and decreasing services all the better.

we need to make better housing for oaps many are lonely and cant afford to heat big homes maybe retirement villages like they do in usa .

But all the big houses near me when oap pass sway will go for big money way out of our reach,

my inlaws paid 3k for their house.

its hard living one one imcome in todays economy.

Grey- deal! (Not that there is much to watch these days)

Interesting re retirement homes in USA. You'd need better regulation as many here seem to be open to abuse.

Did you see the retirement home in Diary of Wimpy Kid,my mum was salivating?

so:

• take the money off the rich pensioners
• force the ones in social housing to move however old they are
• move the middle income ones to retirement villages.

no thank you.

I would expect whoever is in power after the next election will make more cuts (to pensioners or whoever they can squeeze money out of) - it's early days in this crisis and our outgoings as a country are still rising, not falling.

Our pips will be well and truly squeaked by the time this is all over (many years hence).

i am more optimisatic about the future - i think we will be tougher, more realistic, more self reliant and more skeptical about governments handing out money to people on high incomes.

sounds good mam29:)

Square the retirement villages in the US are different to retirement homes here, unlike our homes they are purpose built bungalows or flats in a gated community where people live independently in their own home not as here where they live in a home and taken care of ie laundry done and food provided.

May I just repeat for the umpteenth time on this thread that that we[pensioners] pay tax on our pensions at exactly the same rate as every other earner

No you don't, on income that falls in the basic rate band you pay tax at half the rate of employees, 20% instead of about 40%. (NI including employer NI is just another income tax.)

Someone on a 40K pension will pay roughly 6K in income tax leaving them with 34K. Someone whose employer pays out 40K to employ them will get what's left after 5.5K income tax and 7.5K NI has been paid to the government, leaving them with 27K. (The employee income tax is slightly lower in this example because their contractual salary is less than 40K to make room for employers NI on top of it.)

I know someone will quibble with me treating employer NI as a tax on the employee, but I do believe it is economically correct to do so.

'I'd love to see the figures on those elderly types blocking in their big houses. The ones where there is suitable accommodation available for them to size down. Away from their friends and rels. Like fuck.

I'd like to see it linked to the numbers of elderly who die when removed from their homes, and NOT to hospitals/hospices but to other accommodation. Pound to a penny they die in droves. Solution !!!!!'

But it's okay for disabled children.

National Insurance is not tax it is insurance which pays out in certain circumstances until 'term' which is when you stop paying the premiums and get the benefits-in this case pension and free prescriptions.
Calling a horse a donkey doesn't make it one.

londonman, I disagree with your figures. using www.incometaxcalculator.org.uk and 40k income:

pensioner receives 34k
non pensioner 30k

the differences due to pensioner having about £1300 greater tax allowance and not paying NI. not exactly a king's ransom after a lifetime's work.

and they probably paid a lot more tax than most.

Right so scrap wfa scrap free bus travel and increase pension credit to compensate lower income pensioners.

Scrap ni but increase income tax significantly.

Scrap the bedroom tax but require people in social housing to move into a smaller property if one available and if they refuse without good cause then put sanctions on them.

Make cb universal again but small increase on higher rate tax to compensate lower( this will be paid by wealthy pensioners too)

Have i missed anything or anyone got any other suggestions.

The only people who could complain about this is people with large savings and pensioners. (just for the record this would hit me hard as i'm funding being sahm with savings)

LondonMan spot on. NI is a tax by any other name - it is only political expediency that stops it being so recharacterised.

fasterstronger I doubt those pensioners have paid more tax. Tax used to be something largely paid by those earning over average incomes. Nowadays it kicks in well below. The tax those pensioners paid reflected the welfare bill as then existed - this was lower for many reasons including that there were FEWER pensioners back then - current pensioners now make up over half of the country's welfare bill and we are expecting a smaller cohort to pay for them and for much longer.

BTW Students starting now will not graduate £27k in debt - that doesn't include the inflation plus 3% that applies from the moment they take the loan, nor does it include the recommended 8.5k a year for maintenance. They will graduate more like nearly £50k in debt. Some may defray the costs with some part time working but not, say, medics, who do not have the holidays, or those taking unpaid internships in order to better their cv's. And those on longer courses wil be even more in debt. We are burdening them like no previous generation. Effectively their tax rate will be 9% more than anyone else's (as the student loans will never be paid off) so they will be paying 9% more more tax than pensioners as well as the 18% National Insurance. So pensioners will be paying 25% tax if basic rate whilst young graduate employees will be taxed at 25 + 18 + 9 = 41% when not earning much above average wages (and the threshold for paying back is unlikely be uprated for inflation). IT"S NOT FAIR.

Incidentally, I am about to retire so my posts are not out of self interest, but stem rather from embarrassment and a sense of injustice.

jacks365 looks good. You missed doing something to cap final salary and public sector pensions and bringing in a more immediate rise in retirement age.

undercover I doubt those pensioners have paid more tax. Tax used to be something largely paid by those earning over average incomes.

this is not correct. most tax is paid by high earners. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

see table head 'High Income'

the total for the top 10% is 27.6% 8.6% 4.2%= around 40%.

so the top 10% pay 40% of the total tax take.

So pensioners will be paying 25% tax if basic rate whilst young graduate employees will be taxed at 25 + 18 + 9 = 41% when not earning much above average wages

this is just plain wrong!!!

Also tax used to be much much higher. My father (NHS worker) was paying 65% tax on his salary in the 1970s on the upper part of it, ridiculously high levels of tax. I was paying 33% - that was the very very lowest basic rate of tax when I started paying tax I think.

Also pensioners have paid into national insurance for 40 years and in return they get a state pension. It woudl be very unfair now to make them pay 12% national insurance on their pension.

Also yes some pensioners, but not higher rate tax payers who are pensioners, at present get a slightly higher single person allowance BUT that is being totally abolished as the personal allowance for everyone moves to £10,000 per person.

I remember paying 14% interest on my mortgage and I expect most pensioners of my age paid a similar amount. My children pay a very low interest on their mortgages. I had four children before I had a washing machine (single tub with mangle on top) All my children expect to have all the white goods from the get go. Times are different and slagging off different sections of society is just what this government wants. Haven't you heard of divide and rule.

Xenia is absolutely right. Tax rates used to be much higher. Take a look at this HMRC table: www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/tax-structure/table-a2.pdf.