to think that people with savings don't realise they may not be eligible for ANY Universal Credit

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Universal Credit will be affected by savings over £6000 and if an individual or a couple have savings of £16000 between them they will not be entitled to any Universal Credit. I'm in a full time low paid job and have no pension, but do have savings slightly above £16000 from my inheritance. It wasn't a big safety net for the future especially with current interest rates but I thought it was better than nothing. Now Nothing would actually give me a much better return and I'm going to have to spend it on topping up my income, as I don't think the chance of getting a higher paid job is likely in the foreseeable future.

Well said AThing

Plus this change is going to make it virtually impossible for young families to get a foot on the property ladder. Saving for a house wil lose them CTC/UC. It seems very harsh 'rug pull' to those in rented accommodation.

Good point, property.

Exactly what I think too property. However, someone living in a 5 bed detached house with mortgage paid will be entitled to claim. It's not fair at all. No doubt the tories will tell us that those homeowners are aspiring while those renters are not.

Yes, it seems to encourage permanent dependency rather a temporary boost to family income while childcare costs are high.

But child tax credits exist so that people who can't afford their children have a means of clothing them and feeding them. CTC does not exist so that you can have state subsidy for your children while you save up to buy yourself a property!

I'm amazed that anyone thinks its ok for people to be saving for property while government/taxes pay for their own children.

Just

Exactly. There is no sense, consistency or reason. Just another arbitrary policy which punishes.

Clouds, we are saying that those on average and low incomes will no longer be able to save to buy a house yet those already on the ladder will continue to get assistance despite possibly having equity in their home. It is unfair and hurts those in rented.

Clouds, I'm talking about someone who has saved to buy a property while they were working. In our situation, dh is a higher rate tax payer and we are trying really hard to save for our first house. If he loses his job when UC comes in, we would not be able to claim anything. Why should this not also apply to a family with their own home. They should be made to downsize to release equity. Why is it ok to have assets in one family, which equate to the same or more than the amount of cash savings in another family. I would say that the family with their own home are in a much better position financially and security wise.

Add message | Report | Message poster AThingInYourLife Wed 03-Apr-13 13:04:07
Yes, it seems to encourage permanent dependency rather a temporary boost to family income while childcare costs are high.

AMEN

Property, I understand that, and I see the point, but this is child tax credits I'm talking about here,not working tax credits. Child tax credits shouldn't need to exist in the first place, but unfortunately there is a real need for working tax credits, and in the case of those, I'd agree with your point.

The majority of families that own their own home also own great big mortgages. They are always going to need housing, so while I see your point, I can't see the logic of turfing someone out of their home so that they can either live in an owned property that is too small for them, or to make them start private renting because they would be unlikely to get a council or HA home.

Benefits are there to help people that have fallen on hard times, and a family that has managed to get a mortgage and have equity in it are more likely to have been in a good situation and then need help than a family who has had children before they have got enough money for a deposit on a property ( assuming that that's what they want to do because that's what we are talking about here). That's what welfare is supposed to do. Help people who have fallen on hard times, not prop people up while they have children before they have the capability of housing and supporting them.

Cash savings are different to equity because they can be easily accessed without making a family move away from their home or jobs or schools.

Someone that is forced to release their equity will still need housing. Someone that is forced to spend their savings will just be spending their savings, there is a big difference between the two situations.

"But child tax credits exist so that people who can't afford their children have a means of clothing them and feeding them."

How about thinking about them less as scroungers and more as potential organs for your non-donating family?

You are OK with freeloading a system for your own benefit, so it's hard to see what your issue is here.

"That's what welfare is supposed to do. Help people who have fallen on hard times, not prop people up while they have children before they have the capability of housing and supporting them."

No, tax credits are not for people who have fallen on hard times.

They are to help families with children stay out of poverty.

We had children while renting, as property prices are way too high. If we'd waited any longer we'd have been in our 40's. We still rent. As I said dh is a higher rate tax payer (for now) and we have always worked very hard. I am getting the feeling that you think we are deemed less worthy of help because we rent clouds and weren't 'responsible' enough to buy our own over-priced shoe box before having dc.

I have argued on many, many of the recent benefit threads. I'm a true leftie but I agree with the policy of savings. This country is struggling, we cannot afford to give out money left, right and centre. You can have a small pot of savings (up to £6K) for unforseen emergencies but I don't see why you should be entitled to benefits if you have a little pot stashed away.

I am happy to admit on here, I have savings and thus, I am currently ineligible for ESA. I worked my arse off to save that money, going without for a long time and I hoped it would be for a deposit for my own home one day. I'm now needing that money to live off - rent, food, bills etc. Yeah, it's bloody gutting to know I'll be unlikely to ever save that amount again and unless I marry or meet someone, I'm unlikely to own a property but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Ah, and there is another inconsistency. It is ok to move the children on council estates to new areas and schools (in order for parents to a avoid 'bedroom tax') but it is not ok for children of home owning parents to do the same?

The message I am trying to convey here is that I don't want to see anyone, council, rented, mortgaged etc hurt by idiotic, inconsistent, arbitrary Tory bullshit policies. So many people are falling for the 'I'm alright Jack' tactics being played.

Agreed property. You're only 'alright' till you're not 'alright' IYKWIM.

Child tax credits were sold to families as a perfectly normal thing to have.

Helping those on shitty min wage raise a family with slightly less stress.

My DH works full time, when this crappy shitty UTC comes in I will be made to answer to the job centre too!

You couldn't make it up!

It was never given as a benefit. We were almost forced in to claiming, as there was no other choice .

And? Benefits are not here to prop up peoples' personal savings. I don't see how it sucks. What would suck is if you were allowed nothing. £16K is a huge amount of money!

"..a family who has had children before they have got enough money for a deposit on a property ( assuming that that's what they want to do because that's what we are talking about here). That's what welfare is supposed to do. Help people who have fallen on hard times, not prop people up while they have children before they have the capability of housing and supporting them."

But Clouds, almost no-one these days can afford to buy a house. Say a teacher and a bus driver, working full time, even if they saved for ten years, would still not be able to raise enough of a deposit in most places to get a mortgage.
Buying a house before you have children is a totally unreachable goal for MOST PEOPLE.
The only people I know who own houses/flats, are either people who were given SUBSTANTIAL wads from their parents, or people who bought 15 years ago.
Also, wages are so low, and rents, transport and fuel so high, that if people only had children when they needed no help from the state, they just never would.
I don't know whether people with large savings should claim state help tbh (and like TSC I am very left wing) BUT I do feel that every single change the government makes squeezes the have nots and have-littles more and more, and social mobility has been killed stone dead.
As of yesterday, due to the new round of cuts, I am personally £25 a month worse off. Yesterday I took a single bus journey with ds which cost me nearly four quid.
I am really worried about how people are going to cope, including us.

Child tax credits and Working Tax credit were benefits introduced by Labour. It seemed like a good idea at the time but it has just encouraged a culture of low wages and part-time work only offered by companies, knowing it will all be topped up by benefit. It needed to be changed. Housing Benefit again went crazy under Labour. Encouraging greedy landlords to demand ever higher rent. Something had to be done.

and a lot of people haven't "fallen on hard times" they are just doing what they have always done, they are working in full time jobs but their employers do not pay them enough to survive on. The government know this and they subsidies a lot of these jobs to keep things like food, healthcare costs etc down so YOU don't have to pay so much. If everyone were paid a fair and decent wage then the companies would have to get the money back from somewhere so YOUR costs would go through the roof!! Then you would be really moaning as it would effect you directly. Think about it. The OP is talking as someone who is working FULL TIME. You are directly profiting from people like her, who are working hard and earning a shit wage yet you then have the nerve to paint people like her as a "scrounger" and say they shouldn't be entitled to a bit of an inheritance. It is disgusting.

'Thankfully we are ok as we live quite frugally and as we own home outright can still afford nice holidays but why should we have to use money we had put aside for a comfortable retirement when we had never claimed a penny all our working lives?? The system stinks and I feel so sorry for anyone who has suffered similarly and is younger than us. Disgraceful!'

You own your own home outright and have a pension and are complaining you don't get state handouts?! Those are two things that will never happen for many younger people, not because they don't 'work hard' or 'are shrewd' but because house prices are a joke in relation to even good wages and as a consequence rents are very high, on top of taxes.

'Thankfully we are ok as we live quite frugally and as we own home outright can still afford nice holidays but why should we have to use money we had put aside for a comfortable retirement when we had never claimed a penny all our working lives?? The system stinks and I feel so sorry for anyone who has suffered similarly and is younger than us. Disgraceful!'

Rarely am I struck dumb, but congratulations, that post has managed it.

Exactly WHY do you think you should get hand outs? Just because? you want a piece of something you think everyone else is getting? That remark is just so typical of the me-me-me generation. It used to be that you saved for rainy days and retirement and you used that money as a fall back. Not to stuff under your mattress then put the begging bowl out to.

It absolutely undermines those who have a genuine need for welfare assistance.