To think this can't possibly be normal Sea Cadets procedure?

[pointythings]

DD1's best friend is in the Sea Cadets. She has an event tomorrow and has been told that she and her peers will not be allowed to wear coats or gloves, though the temperature will not rise above freezing. She will have to spend several hours outside without any form of winter gear.

Please tell me that this isn't normal? I mean, we don't expect our troops to run around in sub-zero temperatures without the appropriate kit, why should we expect children and teenagers to do it? And why isn't there a proper winter uniform anyway?

There seems to be a lot of barely informed twaddle on this thread, coupled with what can only be described as 'idiocy'.

I am forces, I work with Cadets (ACF, CCF (Army)) in my spare time, and also a youth club. When I was younger I was in the Boys' Brigade. The BB Uniform for boys 11 - 18 was a blue shirt.

Your DD1's friend is obviously on some sort of formal parade. It may be at odds with modern life, but the SCC have a dress code, this is enforced with a little more rigor than school uniform.

Cadets of all hues are PROUD to wear their uniform.

So they have been told that they will be on parade, for a period of time, in only the prescribed form of dress.

SCC WILL have warm kit. They are issued a supply of Gore Tex Navy pattern water proofs of the SAME standard the RN and RNR are issued for use on Ocean going ships. This is expensive, thus such items are usually held at the Training Ship the SCC is based at (a TS is usually a building by the way) and issued and returned as needed.

Before this parade, it is possible the £100 odd a shot coats will be issued.

Failing that, your DD1's friend has been warned that coats, etc. will not be worn, and they'll be outside for a few hours.

To that end they would be well advised to dress in layers UNDER the uniform. And no doubt they HAVE been advised to do so.

I wore a SHIRT, as my uniform with the Boys' Brigade. Under which I often wore sweatshirts and thermals as needed. I am still alive and healthy.

SCC wear a nice Wooly Pully in cold conditions, IIRC. Under which a sweatshirt or thermals will keep them nice and warm.

Their hands may be cold, but if their core temperature is maintained, no one will be harmed.

This is all good character building stuff. If they get cold on this parade, they will not on the second. I doubt the Adults will stand by if a Cadet truly needs to be fallen out and warmed up.

This standing about (as no doubt some of the above cretins see it) will teach a valuable life skill to the Cadets, so that when they are in more adventurous environments such as canoeing, sailing or mountaineering they will be able to dress THEMSELVES appropriately.

All these things I did, Duke Of Edinburghs, canoeing, sailing all before I was 18. Letting our kids fall (a little) in a safe environments allows them to develop in to the Adults we want them to be.

Furthermore, don't assume that just because the adults are uniformed they don't care about the kids.

As an aside, Hulababy, I very much doubt you have a clue what heat exhaustion really is. I can assure you the kids fainting on parade were no where near heat exhaustion.

As for risk assessments, NO Cadet activity will take place without one, so don't imagine demanding 'sight' of risk assessments will suddenly cause panic.

Pointything, it is a shame that DD1 has not gone in to the SCC or similar. The experience, responsibility and fun that is available in CONTROLLED and SAFE environments really develop kids.

Google Ten Tors or Duke of Edinburgh's Gold Expedition to see what some of the Young People are capable of 'on their own' with proper training and development.

Just seen this...

[Saying you have to wear summer uniform because the calendar says it's summer is like saying you can't have the central heating on because we're past the solstice. It's stupid.

You can toughen young people up through discipline, routine, physical activity - those things are all good. Using rigid adherence to appearance - not so good.]

This activity is not used to 'toughen' up the Cadets. No activity is used to 'toughen' them up.

Uniform = 1 form. Ie everyone looks the same. That said there is provision for the wearing of warmer uniform/kit should the environment require it.

And as mentioned, if you're in summer dress and it is a little cold for you, put warm kit UNDER the uniform.

It isn't stupid. You are not familiar with the system that is all.

I can't believe people here are describing children fainting in the hot and cold and getting hypothermia as 'normal'. Christ. I'm sure the cadets do a lot of good for a lot of children and young people but surely that is taking the whole thing too far? What is gained by that?

It is not normal blueemerald.

It is the image that the uninformed or mis-informed have painted over the actual reality.

I don't know any 13 year old who would willingly wear a coat under any circumstances
Both DSs did this when they were beavers and cubs.

Well, a few posters here seem to be reporting the same thing. Are you suggesting they are making up these occurrences? I don't think they mean 'it's normal the armed forces are evil' I think they mean 'it's normal, get over it'. I am prepared to be corrected though.

I am still unaware of what not allowing children to wear coats and especially gloves achieves.

Lazaruss Excellent posts. Both me and my DH are ex-Sea Cadets (I then did a few years in the WRNS and DH is still in the RN) and I agree with everything you've said.

Yes, a few posters are reporting the same thing.

As I have said, it is not normal for kids to get hypothermia or faint on parade.

That said, it isn't unknown.

Daft as it sounds anyone stood on parade can feint, I have. It happens, but is not to be considered normal.

Often kids, or young servicemen, will stand 'wrong'. They are tense, for example, and thus faint.

Saying this is 'normal' s like saying 'road accidents' are normal.

Often Cadets are allowed to wear non uniform clothing if the weather dictates, especially warm kit. On parades this isn't possible, so they are told such, and thus must wear (for example) warm kit hidden under their uniform.

Sea Cadets is a youth activity. It's not armed forces it's a leisure activity. Nobody can force her to do what she doesn't want, nor against her parents wishes.

Generally it's a well run youth organisation but the odd time it lets some wannabes who didn't make it into the regs slip in. You may have one of those..... Talk to the adult instructors and get the reasoning too.

It is indeed voluntary, and if someone doesn't want to play they don't have to.

Have you ever seen a school choir singing hymns? Sometimes they wear coats, and sometimes they are wearing only sweatshirts or similar. I know my MiL sings in only a bluse and cardi.

Do you think they just freeze to death singing, or wear something underneath?

Obviously the good thing about the choir example is it is fundamentally the same situation, just without the 'military' angle.

Can you understand why a uniform is held in such esteem by those who wear it?

[the odd time it lets some wannabes who didn't make it into the regs slip in. You may have one of those..... Talk to the adult instructors and get the reasoning too.]

This is mere stereotyping.

There are good instructors and bad instructors. Their history doesn't dictate which they will be.

I had a run in with a parent who immediately accused ME of being uncaring to the Cadets in my supervision.

They knew I was Reg, and therefore formed an 'opinion'. They left dazed and confused, as their 'opinion' had been shaken, torn up and tossed in to the nearest bin.

They weren't confused as to my Righteous Indignation though.

Wonder why you don't see Scandinavian cadets and army recruits in uniforms which do not protect their hands and feet. Perhaps because they know that frostbite to the hands or toes can cause permanent damage that never goes away. And that slipping thermals under your trousers is no protection for your toes and fingers.

I had a friend who got frostbitten whilst playing as a child: 20 years later it was still troubling her.

No, she didn't die from it or even end up in hospital- but itching and pain that never goes away isn't a lot of fun either. I'd count that as permanent harm.

As children growing up in Scandinavia and playing out of doors unsupervised, we were taught to watch each other for signs of frostbite. I think we were as hardy and outdoors as any children need to be, but going out without gloves in winter time was seen as plain silly.

Yes, because in Britain we don't know that. [roll eyes]

AIs of ALL Cadet forces are briefed/trained on such matters.

I can assure you if frostbite was a possibility the parade would be canned or different measures put in place.

For example, indoors in a reduced format.

If you're so good with cold weather how did your mate get frostbite?

Are you aware of the differences between the Swedish Cadets and the British Cadet Forces?

One is a Youth Organisation sponsored by the MoD, the other is a junior entry route in to the Swedish Home Defence Force.

Once a certain point is reached in the Swedish Cadets the Cadet is seen as fully trained to join the Swedish Home Defence force. The Swedes are older and carry out far more arduous training tan many of their British compatriots will ever do unless they join the Regular or Reserve Forces proper.

Man I loved cadets. I had numerous cold weather related incidents, but it never stopped me going back. I'd be 14 all over again just to do cadets.

The 'administration instruction' (with Risk Assessment that would have deflated fallenangles triumphant stand) will have dealt matters such as 'what to do if the weather is too cold'.

Or rain, or a number of other problems. The person in charge will have one. You have to have a risk assessment to drive the kids about in a minibus.

Watch a parade in cold/inclement weather. You'll often see uniformed children in the crowd. Pound to a penny they are the younger kids or those more at risk to cold and have been fallen out, or were never included in the formal parade to start with.

They'll follow their peers, but in coats and warm kit. If it is particularly cold it isn't unknown for youth organisations to not march (for example to a war memorial) but step out from their warm kit for the silence, before falling out again.

In heat you'll find similar measures.

But let's not let what actually happens get in the way 'eh? Those beastly military types are trying to freeze our kids.

My memorys of cadets was: you will take part in this parade if you wish to continue to attend this establishment, you cannot wear coats or gloves, just the formal greens (the name escaped me) whatever you fit underneath is at your discretion.
Whatever I fit underneath was never enough to stand stock still for such long periods.
Like I say though, it never stopped me going back.
Unlike pe at school, where you were sent outside in shorts and a rugby shirt regardless of temperature and you couldn't wear layers underneath. Brrr. Put me off for life.

All, i am a current instructor within the Sea Cadets - Please let me assure you that the Safety & Welfare of the Cadets should always come first... when there are parades etc.. there are usually standing orders which ask the staff to evaluate the weather on the day. I tell my cadets that if gloves are worn by 1 cadet - then they must be worn by all, so that the standard and code of uniform looks the same.
We have been working endlessly to try to change some peoples mindset - to get the out of the 'old' methods, and into the new - this will take time, and sometime people slip the net.. An example is: if it were the Trafalgar Day Parade in the centre of London - all cadets would have to wear No1 uniform - they CAN wear other clothing underneath to keep them warm (although the uniform is VERY warm), as long as it cannot be seen. Please let me re-assure you all that MOST parades cadets wont wear a coat - unless they are Juniors - 10-11 - in which case they can, as their uniform is not very warm - but we DO try our best to look after the safety of the cadets, its just that some units have different ideas on how to go about this.. A Cadet should never be threatened by any member of staff about having to leave the unit if they dont attend a parade!!! The Sea Cadets welcome ALL young people aged 10-18, and we should also understand that they wont always be able to attend events!!
I hope this helps you all, and maybe puts the Sea Cadet Corps into a little better light?
Thanks x

Join Army Cadets

If the kids can't cope with a few hours in the cold for a parade then they won't last with the army cadets Greenkit! I don't know what goes on with Sea Cadets but my hubby is a volunteer with the army cadets and tells me about the freezing weekend camps around the North. Kids can tough it out. You'll be surprised what they can achieve whilst us mothers are fainting at the idea of no hats/scarves/gloves/coats etc - like school uniform - if they wear blazers then they can't wear coats on top and soem schools ban hats and scarves so I've heard. Actually parades don't really last hours though do they? No different to standing around in the cold waiting for some sale to start or concert or whatever.

Somewhereaclockisticking I am an adult instructor too, with Army Cadets. Parades usually last about 30mins tops appart from the rememberance parade which is a couple of hours, but no one minds that one