Red Nose Day!

[qualitytoffee]

Hiya everyone! I get it, i do fund raising events, every year, but it galls me to see the pomp and ceremony that a pope has in the vatican, and the riches they have, while they preach love, and bigotry, and cover up child abuse. Sorry, but i'm so angry about this. I know i'm being unreasonable, but it pisses me off.

Your upbeat title and opening kind of belies the seriousness of what you're talking about

It's a bit of a broad subject, is the pomp more traditional and what's expected of a pope rather than flicking the vs at the less well off?

And it's a bit of a tenuous link to red nose day

What's that all about?

Not wishing to put words in the OP's mouth, but watching the CR stuff with children dying for want of a £5 vaccine, and then looking at the massive wealth (pomp, and circumstance) of the Catholic Church, it is rather sickening. Didn't Jesus say something about "suffering the little children to come unto me"? Was that really supposed to mean "let them die, while Your Representative on Earth" dresses in fine robes, eats fine foods, and drinks fine wines?

Then don't fundraise for the Pope if it bothers you that much.

I think that's what Protestantism was getting at OldLady, but I daren't say it outright for fear of getting Catholic retribution on my ass

(had to look up the difference between protestantism/anglicanism so I might have that bit wrong)

Ah, am an atheist, (though raised CoS/Protestant) AgentZigzag, so I'm not overly-concerned about various religious groups taking retribution. I don't subscribe to their ideas of Hell and Eternal Damnation (not actually sure "Jesus" did either, I am always confused as to why Christians invoke the Old Testament. But only select parts...)

But I'd be interested if anyone could actually justify the incredible wealth of churches in general, and the Holy Roman lot in particular, vis a vis what I watched tonight. Apparently, two million children die a year, from easily, and cheaply prevented diseases; they talked about vaccines that can prevent three, five, or even seven common diseases. So £15 a child, it's not so much, is it?

Isn't that mixing up religion with politics OldLady?

It sounds a bit like communism and you could say the same thing about industry and hereditary wealth.

It's just that religion sets itself up with a moral message making easy to turn that round onto them.

Striving for something better is what spurs people on, for themselves if they're selfish, and for other people if they've managed to overcome more basic instincts.

But religion seeks to involve itself in politics, at least round my way. The recently "retired"/disgraced/under police investigation for sexual abuse (but not of children) Cardinal Keith O'Brian has been very vocal in Scotland on the topic of gay marriage, adoption etc. Join the secular world, seek to influence the secular world, expect tne secular world to look at your position...

I can understand why people want the two separate, but they're too entrenched/entwined to ever be separated, here anyway.

And both are needed to counterbalance the other, politics without morality ends up with Nazis and Stalinism, religion without political boundaries is the spanish inquisition.

We need someone to have sufficient clout to speak up for those without a voice, but with safeguards enough to stop them from thinking they're better than everyone else and everyone else should be like them.

Which I think we have in this country.

Wasn't there a nappy company (or something) fanjo, who had an advertising campaign saying they'd pay for an inoculation for every pack sold. (can't remember the company or what they were inoculating against )

You can't help but think that's a pretty low way of getting their product sold and why didn't they just give their own fucking money to have the children immunised?

They must have thought a strategy that implied they'd withhold what could be a lifesaving medical intervention from small babies would work on parents here.

I wonder how successful it was.

Oh, no, I completely understand you, Bruised, and feel much the same way, but I suspect the rich celebs who took part probably do donate, there was ceratinly genuine emotion on show.

Agent, I think they can be separated, and I also think it is possible to be moral/have morals (but they are so individual, aren't they?!) without religion. Why are there CoE Bishops in the Lords, as of right (rather than earned because they, as individuals, have proven worth?) The Moderator of the CoS has no such right, am not aware if Catholic hierarchy, senior Imams, Rabbis etc have that right?

I should probably shut up at this point, wine may be involved and I'm really not looking for a fight.

Ahh, it was Pampers and pretty successful by UNICEFs account.

'and I also think it is possible to be moral/have morals (but they are so individual, aren't they?!)'

But that's the point, you can't have everyone adhering to their own version of morality, and if there has to be something to glue everyone together so they think and act as one, surely it's better to have something that's progressed over thousands of years to be the sophisticated entity mainstream established religion can be today. (excluding extremism and 'woo')

[returns from lurkerdom]

I think there are some pretty universal moralities, and some of the Ten Commandments sum them up quite well. Don't steal, don't murder (war is different), don't break vows you have made... Stuff about worshipping false idols, hmm, could have some value but only if you know what really is worth "idolising" (not pop singers.) Basically, "love thy neighbour as you would yourself" covers it.

Now I really have to lurk go to bed, I did a nightshift last night and have had very little sleep so am probably far too incohent to carry on this (very interesting) conversation. And my washing machine is on spin cycle.

Thanks, I'd enjoy carrying this on in the afternoon daytime.

{Not sure it's a good thing to have everyone thinking and acting as one, btw. Haven't read Bruised's post yet.}

FFS, OLKN! SHUT UP!

Like Him or not OldLady, you can't deny God had the copyright on a good soundbite

That's where politicians get themselves tied up in knots fanjo, they're trying to justify cutting money from those who have the least of it by setting them up as selfish workshy scum, at the same time as trying to get people to help themselves and each other (so they can save money).

To get people to feel concern for others you have to give an individual face to the faceless masses, and making them out to be a drain on everyone else and less than shit on your shoe isn't going to do that.

Oldlady,

You might say that a person has proven their worth by becoming a CofE bishop. They're worth their place more than any hereditary peer.

Oh, I should sooooo be in bed by now.... Just waiting for the tumble drier to finish, so my house doesn't go up in flames while I sleep..

But no, i cannot consider any circumstance whereby a "person could prove their worth" simply by being a CoE bishop. Or any other "senior figure" in any other religious belief, or none.

Though I agree they have as much/little value as a heriditary peer.

I said upthread I'm an atheist. And I'm now going to sound rude, but why does having a particular belief/superstition (it's all the same to me) mean you have "proven worth"?

(Please bear in mind that I am a Scot, so I see no relevance in CoE Bishops having a say in any laws that affect me.)