to find it increasingly depressing how having children (or not) still can really divide women and end friendships and to wonder how the rest of you deal with this?

[quesadilla]

I always really wanted not to be the kind of person who only had "mummy" friends -- it was one of the reasons I was never sure if I wanted kids until I had dd. When I was pregnant and when DD was very little I went of my way to avoid NCT-ish friendship groups in order not to restrict myself only to the company of other mums of young babies. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I just didn't want to "lose" the old me and become a baby bore, IYSWIM.
Most of my long-term friends now have children and we all suffer from the usual difficulties of keeping in touch with each other that small kids/jobs impose on lives.
Among those who haven't, most are OK with the fact that children form a major part of your life. But I have one friend, childless, who more or less demands that I not refer to my child in front of her unless its a passing or incidental reference (i.e. I have to pick her up after work tonight, type reference). She gets very uptight if the conversation drifts to children for more than a minute or so and complains. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that other people's children are of limited interest and particularly if you don't have kids yourself, and I don't want to talk about DD's potty training progress when I'm out with the girls. But I also don't realy want to be forced into a situation where the most important person in my life is ruled totally off conversational limits, and any decision to put her needs over friend's needs is treated with anger and scorn. (FYI just as context, childless friend is largely childless by choice, so its not like she's had a heartbreaking history of failure to conceive or anything.)
Childless friend's attitude towards her friend's children has become harder and harder to deal with: there have been a couple of incidents in the past few months where I think her behaviour has been unreasonable. I've tried to be accomodating but have got to the point where I really don't know if I can sustain the friendship any more, we've sort of drifted apart and it makes me feel very sad. At the same time, while I still crave adult and interesting company, I really want a local friendship group where I can actually share parenting ideas/discussions etc. I would really like to think that I can maintain a balance between having friends who really have nothing to do with my family life and being a mum and other friends who are able to share in the experience of being a parent, but it just seems to be bloody hard work.
Do people have to accept that there's a fundamental divide between parents and non-parents which is hard to bridge until kids grow up? Or is it just that I've got the wrong kind of childless friends?

I have never experienced this divide, never ever. It sounds like the problem is with your friend's personality, not her childless status.

It's a tough one OP. I have plenty of friends with no children. Without this ever having been said, some of them actively ask about my kids, others I sense, would rather not have the convo veer that direction too much. I personally find it very easy not to talk about my kids at all because, with being their main carer, I value time when they are not in my head space (and I hope I don't have to explain that this doesn't mean I don't love them to pieces!). If I'm honest, I wouldn't actually see how they'd need to come into a convo with a childless friend, so that wouldn't be an issue for me. However, if it's a case of not being able to do something with that friend because of one of my children, they win hands down and I'd make that clear.

Re people with children, some are really endlessly and inexcusably boring about their children. It bugs me, and I have one group of friends who had children before me and I started to hate seeing them so much that if I hadn't had kids myself, we probably wouldn't be in contact. We are now I suppose, but I still see them as kid bores, only I can just about tolerate it now.

Helltotheno I totally get how boring it can be listening to other people banging on about their kids. Believe me, I bend over backwards not to do this, even with other friends who have kids, particularly with childless people.
But childless friend has actually imposed a moratorium on the subject, insisting she wants to talk about more "interesting" subjects (like her work). I just inwardly bristle about this requirement that I observer her rules on this subject. It just seems a little unilateral and arrogant.
She's also done some things which I think are a bit beyond the pale: kicking off and giving me an earful when I had to cancel a date with her at short notice because DD had to go to A&E is the worst example, but there have been others.
Again, this might be about this particular individual, rather than about childless people per se -- I realize not everyone without kids is this selfish. I just wonder if in very close friendships children can drive a wedge which subtly changes priorities and prises people apart, and if there's a way to deal with it.

I think it's an issue with your friend rather than society more widely.

Agree with theseniorwrangler.

This is such a difficult one. I have a friend who is not as bad, but the situation is quite similar. We have difficulties meeting up because of the distance between us and my DP doing shift work, so it's very rare that I get to see her how she would like to i.e. going out in town, me staying at hers (as I used to be able to do). I've had a similar situation with DC at A&E and that being completely uninteresting to her, which is when it becomes hurtful - surely anyone who is a friend should show some interest and care when their friend's loved ones are quite ill? My friend is also prone to talking at length about her problems, and not caring much about mine.

I don't know what the answer is. But it does sound like it is your friend's personality more than it is her as a 'childless' friend. Maybe limit your expectations or how much you see her? I guess I just wanted to say you're not alone with this problem!

SecondComing I get that... I went out of my way to say I don't talk about my kid much when I'm out, just out of general etiquette, and also don't really want to either. But do you not think having this imposed on you as a condition of friendship is kind of out of order? Its a bit like if someone said to you they could only continue the friendship as long as you promised never to talk about your house or your favourite band or something. Isn't it just a bit selfish?

Friendships change when the people involved develop new interests, jobs, priorities or lifestyles. Sometimes the friendship dies, which is sad but not uncommon.

It sounds to me as though your becoming a mother has slightly altered the focus of the friendship and your friend isn't able to adjust. But it could have been anything - a new boyfriend, a change of job or a house move - it just happens that in this case it was the arrival of a child.

Doesn't sound like much of a friend. If you can be bothered, try turning the tables and refuse to allow her to talk about the biggest part of her life. Does she bang on about work, a pet, a hobby? I have lot of childless friends and none behave like that. We talk about all sorts of different things.

I too think it is more to do with the type of person rather than the child/less status.

I have child and non child chats with friends/family who are at a variety of stages in their lives re having or not having families.

I do think your friend is not being very nice!

Fwiw some of the best support and advice I have received since having my ds has came from my childless (unable to have) sister. And some of the biggest displays of lack of understanding have came from two particular family members, one of whom has had two children, and the other is just an expert in everything! setting herself an impossibly high standard to live up to for when she does have the children she is talking about theoretically!

It wouldn't matter to me if a friend or family member had children, were married, what age they were etc but these things sadly seem important to some people.

I agree with your friend.You dont meet your friends to keep going on about your kids.

I think your 'friend' is BVU, you should be able to talk about your children to whoever you like. I'm afraid I'd distance myself if I had a 'friend' like that.
My best friend doesn't have children, I have 3 boys and we've not drifted at all.
We see each other regularly (at her lovely child free house...oh the joy )
She absolutely loves my lads and they call her Aunty.

I also think you should be able to talk about your child (although not bore on, which you aren't doing anyway). A child is going to be a massive part of its parents' lives, that's obvious. I like hearing about the antics of my friends' children.

It is just rude of her to say you can't talk about your child. I personally think people talking about their work can be really tedious, because often you don't really know the details of what they do, you don't know their colleagues etc. so it is really just a load of anecdotes about stuff you don't know about. Children are more universal and therefore interesting.

Well she can't dictate the terms of the conversation OP, so if she does that in a very obvious and authoritative way, she must just be an arse....

See my childless mates wouldn't need to say that to me because by default, I don't talk about my kids much as am happy to get a break.

It's difficult to say in your case. If she's a bore about something in particular, tell her that! Is it just that you're outgrowing the friendship? I know that in the case of good friends I made as an adult, I still like them for all the same reasons, regardless of their 'child' status, and hope they like me the same way so for me, YABU in saying that there's a divide in general... there might just be for you in this case.

I just have such an issue with this whole idea that somehow you are dictated to as to what topics and what aspects of your life you are allowed to talk about.

I can understand if you don't talk about something as it is hurtful like talking about your dad's birthday oarty if she has just recently lost her father, but kids aren't temporary and they are a big part in your life a d can't be airbrushed out of your life. Friendships change and as much as you have in common with her, you have also got other things happening and it is unfair of her to ask you not to change.

I would be reconsidering my friendship with her.

I met up over the summer with an old school and university friend who has no children. I talked (amongst other things) about my children, she talked about her dog, numerous holidays. I asked her about her dog and numerous holidays, she asked me about my children (amongst other things).

Certainly your "friend" isn't being much of a friend. You're a mum, and your DD is a massive part of your life. I can understand she'd not want to discuss the difficulties of getting banana out of baby clothes, but if she won't let you talk about your DD at all, I'd find another friend.

Don't compartmentalise your "mummy friends" and assume they're only good for talking about children related matters. My "mummy friends", now that the DC are in secondary school and we're mostly back working are now shop assistants, IT specialists, scientists, administrators, teachers, musicians, artists, architects, social workers, potters, and the rest.

I 've only ever experienced a divide of general attitude to life rather than a child/childless one.

Our closest couply friends are childless, and whilst that means that sometimes they don't fully understand our limitations regarding night's out, and whilst it means we see them less frequently than before, and the dynamic has changed, they remain exceptionally close friends.

It's about acceptance rather than understanding. I accept their stinky crazy dogs are much loved by them and they are restricted sometimes by them, and they accept our stinky crazy children.

The problem is not some great conflict or divide, your problem is your friend.

What sort of friend puts restrictions on you talking about your kids?! Sorry that seems wierd to me.

as others have said, a baby bore, is just that, but to not even be able to say anything, unless it's absolutely necessary would piss me right off, and I wouldn't want to see her anymore.

But chesty, talking about your kids, if you have kids, is just the same as talking about any other part of your life. Why is it different to talking about your job, or your partner, or your parents, or your hobbies? No one only talks with their friends about the things they have completely on common. I don't have pets but I'll talk to my friends about their pets. I don't ski, but I'll talk to them about their skiing holidays. That's just what you do in a friendship. You talk about the different things that are important to you.

It's one thing if you have someone who spends the entire 4 hours out of an evening talking about their DC, but it's ridiculous to expect a parent not to say their child has starting walking, or saying "mama", or is doing really well at school or at a sport.

This is the thing. Those of you saying that its bad form to meet up with your friends and bang on about kids, I'm going to say for the third time in this thread, I DONT DO IT. Apart from passing references or asking advice if its another friend with kids, I basically don't talk about my daughter at all when I'm out with friends.

What bothers me is the idea of this being dictated to me from on high. If I were to say to her out of the blue "you know what I'm really bored of hearing you bang on about your job (which she does, at length), can we just decide not to talk about it any more?" she would rightly tell me to piss off. But because our friendship was established on a child-free basis its OK for her to set the parameters like this on an ongoing basis.

Anyway, I just find the whole thing very depressing, but its interesting to hear that this is not standard behaviour. Maybe time to move on and draw a line.

Agree with Aldiwhore its not a universal thing. Not sure about your "dont want to be the kind of person that has mummy friends" comment. Don't dismiss the friends made through children as being one dimensional. I have met some brilliant women just because we happened to have children at the same time, but aren't your university friends people who happened to be at university at the same time, work friends because you happened to apply for the same job etc.

So rude of your friend though. You sound sensitive and thoughtful and wouldn't be a baby bore anyway. But she is basically saying what is important to her is important and worthy of discussion and what is important to you...isn't. I had a friend like this (though she wasn't so militant about banning mentioning children but still made it clear she wasn't interested) I listened for hours to her banging on about the office politics in her office about people I had never and would never meet yet any vague mention of my girls was brushed off. People can be dull with or without children.

This isn't about your "friend" being childless. It's about her being a selfish bitch. I can assure you if any of my friends with children had to cancel a meeting to go to A&E, I would be offering to meet them at the hospital with coffee and wishing them good luck.

I do have a "friend" that will probably think I've ditched her since having her baby. It won't be anything to do with her son, it's because not being out in big groups drinking etc means I can no longer ignore how utterly self centred and rude she is. (not saying the OP is in any way whatsoever by the way! Just digressing.)