Not to pay until the job is finished properly?

[Norem]

Hello mumsnet jury I need some opinions please.
We needed our wooden sash windows either replaced or restored so I got a few quotes.
I ended up choosing a joiner who explained what was wrong with them all, said they were restorable and that he would not quote a complete price as we would not know exactly how much it would cost until actually doing the job, but his daily rate is £150.
I was a bit uneasy about not having a final price so asked him roughly how long each window might take and he said roughly a day each. We had 10 to do .
Materials would be on top of this which we agreed.
Problem is we have already pain him for 4 days £600 and £400 for materials so far.
Yesterday he asked for another £980 for time worked now he has worked these hours but keeps running into problem which he then has to take lots of time to resolve. Such as his cement is not setting properly and then he is painting on top of it then having to take it off again ect.
He has tackled 4 windows so far, none of which are finished.
Help, he is a lovely oldish guy which I think is clouding my judgement.
Should I just refuse to pay any more til the job is done?
Should I sack him?
Or should I pay him?

It sounds like he's taking the mick or just very poor at his job. I'd be minded to sack him and say that the £600 he's already had covers the 4 windows he's done (ie he estimated 1 day per window so 4 windows is 4 x £150 day rate = £600 the fact it's taken him longer due to his mistakes shouldn't be your problem). I'd then ask him to give you the materials that you've paid £400 for and then find someone more reliable to finish off the job. If you allow him to carry on as he is you're just writing him an open ended blank cheque.

You shouldn't have entered into this arrangement without getting a quote, or at least without him agreeing to notify you if the cost was going to go over a certain amount. But I would also not be happy at paying him for time spent correcting his own errors. Personally I would tell him that we agreed a daily rate of £150, and 1 day per window, so the maximum he would get in labour costs is £1500. Plus materials, of course. But I don't know if that's actually legal.

Mistake ?was nothing in writing ?and as for paying as he works, ???and (imo) that price ??? we got ours refurbed for £40 per window plus costs >cement not drying?either wrong mix or not enough time to dry (min 3 days before you paint cement )a sash window is a simple thou clever construction made of wood(usually)weights ,rope and various catches,and glass , what did he not know b4 he started ?you cannot be held responsible for his screw ups, refurb is a general term , are u getting a total rebuild ?

In future get a quote in writing... meanwhile with this guy get a current written quote for the rest of the work & don't pay him until he finishes the work to your satisfaction within a given timeframe.

Thanks I feel that both your opinions are right, I feel a total wally for entering into this agreement in the first place.
If I pay him the £980 he wants I will have paid nearly £2000 for four unfinished windows which I know I am not happy to do.
I think he is just not that good at his job which is a hard thing to discuss with someone, especially a nice friendly one.
I will speak to him tomorrow and hammer out a definitive limit to time and money. I am def not handing over any more cash until the job is finished properly.
I know I should probably just sack him though.
Aaahhhhhhhhh :(

If you feel he isn't up to the job then tell him diplomatically & pay him for work done; cut your losses & find a window company through check-a-trade.

It is horrible having to sack someone; i had a 'nice' plumber who did a fairly amateur job on my (tiny) bathroom & i allowed his 'niceness' to cloud my judgement.

Andubelievedthat no not a total rebuil a refurb so windows prised open ( were painted shut) some ropes weights replaced wood sanded down, gaps filled and draught proofing strips applied.
He has def been trying to paint the next day after cement applied and then making a mess. Where do you live? £ 40 a window makes me want to cry.

Latara we got him from rated people, won't use them again!

Since he said he couldn't give you a quote until he'd actually started the job, he's had now had plenty of time to calculate one. Demand a quote, and if it's too high (or even if it's not) you have an excuse not to carry on.

I think you can best avoid saying to a nice man "you're not very good" by sticking to the financial facts. You were told £150 x 10 plus materials. You are now on £2000 and have 4 unfinished windows. That is so far from what was agreed that you cannot continue with his services. That way it isn't so personal. I feel for you though, I am absolutely RUBBISH at standing up for myself in this type of situation, though I have it in my head all perfectly sound.

I keep putting off having a fence done because i've had ridiculous quotes - it's a tiny bit of fence & i know it shouldn't cost more than £150 inc materials, but i've had quotes of £100s !!!

I feel like i should do the fence myself but i'm scared to in case i mess it up.

I think Fairylights's approach is great.

Workmen are an absolute nightmare. We had a plumber once (fixed price quote) who just wouldn't finish our bathroom. It should have taken him a week to do it's the tiniest bathroom known to man and he just wouldn't do it. In the end we really fell out with him and he took our bath hostage!

In the end, after we got our bath back, we sacked him, paid him for the work he HAD done, and then had to get another plumber in to finish the job.

That is a really good idea ecclesvet I will do that tomorrow.
Why does it make me cringe so much to have this conversation with him? I need to grow a backbone and tell it like it is.
I am going to practice all day today, would you all email him today and lay out the problem or would you do it face to face tomorrow?

This is almost exactly what happened with my kitchen - he was a nice man in his 60s, he kept asking for money for materials and his fee until by the end of the job he'd had all his fee in advance and we still owed him money for materials, and there were problems.

We did exactly the same as so many people do - paid up to get rid of him. That was 2 years ago and I still think how stupid we were - its not the first time its happened either!

By the way, Latara mentioned Check a Trade - it makes me go all sorts of shades of puce when their advert comes up on the TV - do you know that companies/individuals pay a fee to belong to them, and then ask customers to give them glowing references on Check a Trade stationery. Those that do say nice things get their comments included, those that don't cannot have their comments taken into account unless a court case is taken out and bad workmanship or whatever proven. If you can't do that, your comments saying they aren't brilliant are not eligible to be included. That's without any fed up customers who simply bin the Check a Trade card. Don't be lulled into any false sense of security by Check a Trade - you have no right to redress through them. I don't rate any of these recommendation "agencies".

Sorry I've gone off into a rant now .... ! I really really hope you can say sorry but sod off to him Norem - good luck.

Burning bridges you are not near Glasgow are you ? Maybe it's the same guy.