To think that dance and drama aren't the same thing

[OddBoots]

The dept for education is doing all sorts of tinkering in various areas, much of it quietly and if I were cynical I'd think that was intentional so we don't notice.

One of these changes is to the 'discount codes' for GCSEs, these codes are the codes given to qualifications for performance tabling so that you can't take, say English in 3 different exam boards and count them all.

It has now been decided that Dance and Drama will have the same code so any school offering the chance to students to do both will only be able to count one of them even if the students do really well in both.

I'm a science kind of woman, I'm a biochemistry undergrad who did neither dance or drama at GCSE but even I can see this is wrong. Creativity and expression are hugely valuable for a civilised society and we would be so much poorer without them.

I'm not sure there is much we can do, Gove and his mates seem deaf to most objections but I do think this is an absolute disgrace.

(sorry milbra might have gone off on one thinking you were talking about music...oops)

My DD does Dance out of school and Drama in -as I said above she would have liked a GCSE in both - was actually really sad when the school said no. The thing is the state schools here offer 11 -14 GCSEs so I really can't understand the problem of two of them being performing arts - most kids would still be taking all the traditional subjects on top of them anyway. It's not really an either/or situation. It might be different if you are doing 8 - but who is these days?

My degree is English Literature & Theatre Studies, from an RG university. Glad to hear that makes me unemployable.

Luckily for the rest of the world, a great many employers DO see the link between Drama and presentation/communication skills.

YokoUhOh But in your line of work, your qualifications are relevant. There is (IMO) limited scope for the performing arts outside teaching. Your CV would not (hypothetically) go in the bin, just that some degrees are more useful than others in the real life workplace.

I do not see the connection with drama/dance with a general level of presentation and communication skills that is required.

I assume you meant, I do not see the connection between drama/dance and the general level of presentation and communication skills that are required

You apparently also can't see that to study the arts is to study history, literature, and social identity.

You also can't see the difference between education and stereotypes.

Falling for the unoriginal, outdated and outmoded 'studies' prejudice.

Perhaps if you had studied drama you would be more familiar with these subtleties. I'm exceedingly pleased to be in your waste paper basket. You, having failed the 'interview' are now going into mine.

But the OP is talking about GCSEs.

Are you saying you'd reject a job candidate for having a 'studies' GCSE, alongside 10 or 12 others? Really?

I don't think there is limited scope for performing arts outside teaching, btw.

The idea that 'performing arts' is limited in scope outside teaching- when it is in fact a massive employer of people in this country and globally is so ridiculous I'm going to have to try harder not to engage with you.

One of these changes is to the 'discount codes' for GCSEs, these codes are the codes given to qualifications for performance tabling so that you can't take, say English in 3 different exam boards and count them all.

You never could so I dont know where you got that misinformation from. The DofE only ever counted the highest grade from any multiple entry. And many schools with borderline candidates do double entry with linear exams in the hopes that one board wjec is more leniently marked. But courses with CAU, which are different for each board, there isn't the scope nor time to teach two different syllabus

FelicityWasCold
when it is in fact a massive employer of people in this country
You are deluded.

"I do not see the connection with drama/dance with a general level of presentation and communication skills that is required."

Have you ever looked into any of the courses that have "studies" in the title? I did Theatre Studies for A level. It wasn't just watching plays and acting, my practical examination included me writing and directing a play, doing the music and lighting. The directing involved a cast of ten, so lots of organising for rehearsals and co-ordinating the cast.

My other A levels were History and Sociology. I didn't go to University because I had no idea what I wanted to do.

I have done quite well in my career, and I have no shame in putting Theatre Studies down as part of my education history. I learned valuable skills in that A level, and the confidence from performing, the confidence and organizational skills from directing have transferred well into the work place.

Sorry. Maybe you can educate me in what the discount codes are for then, I got my information from the Department for Education '2014 Performance Tables
Discounting Guidance' but I may have interpreted it wrong as it was quite wordy.

Sorry, that sounds snippy, I don't mean it to be, I'm genuinely keen to learn.

Dance and drama are in the same field but don't share the same barn... it's like saying that because Phsyics and Chemistry are both 'science' then the same skills are used/needed for both... they're separate disciplines. I say that as an ex Theatre Studies Graduate who never got the dance module. I am almost an 'expert' in Drama (MA level and practice) who just does not do or get dance.

Sure, understanding the body as a performance source is both valuable to the drama and dance student, but they are very different skills and you can have a deep understanding and an outstanding knowledge and talent in one but not be great in the other.

I would also argue that the 'arts' have more of a history in Universities than any other discipline, they are not 'mickey mouse' - though perhaps some of the course designs are, or the students.

Yukouhoh a Head of Department doesn't need to be an expert in every arm of the different disciplines within it of course, but an empathy and understanding of the differences is healthy!

milbracat You're in the ignorant minority I'm afraid, I know many of my fellow ex 'studies' students who hold down senior managerial positions in major corporations, so I can't even begin to get annoyed that you'd have put their CV's in the bin... I can only hope that one day, someone sees through your ignorance. No offence

when it is in fact a massive employer of people in this country
You are deluded.

Am I?

Is there not a theatre in the vast majority of towns in the UK then?

Have I imagined the 100s of performance venues in Edinburgh, Manchester, London and Leeds?

Is the BBC not a large employer?

Do satellite channels not employ arts graduates?

Does equity not have 1000s of paid actors on their books?

Do agents, casting company's, photographers, producers, writers, lighting designers, set designers, FOH staff, publicists and camerapeople get paid?

oldboots

You cannot count two of the same subject - ie 2 x English with different boards. You can count EnglishLlnguage AND English Literature (same or different boards) - different subjects. Lit doesnt not count in the 5 x A*C inc E&M - Lang does.

I think you should ask your data &/or exams officer who will do the census returns and has to pick through the RAISE Online

As from summer 2-13 the vocational qualifications have been stripped out from the 2000+ to 400 more thjat count in the DofE statistics - no longer can school use a diploma in PE (4 GCSE equivs) as 4 GCSEs to inflate statistsics, they will only count as 1 for statistical purposes. Schools can only use 2 different vocational qualifications. As most schools used BTEC science for their bottom sets, that also wipes out the inflation of grades.

So to summarise, a GCSE in English, maths, a Btec in Sci and PE, plus another Option, say, OCR National will now not make the equivalent of 14 GCSEs in reporting figures - it will be 5.

well I'm quite pleased for DD1 that her GCSE in media studies, done in one year as a filler for her top set English class to "stop them getting bored", didn't affect her very academic uni offers.

And obviously DD3s year 6 teacher who told me earlier tonight at parents evening how much her performance skills have both brightened up his class comparison of wedding in different cultures through the medium of dance, anyone , and will stand her in fantastic stead for her future academic and work life, is totally mistaken?

I think milbra has mistaken this forum for the Daily Fail letters page.

Sorry, HollyBerryBush , I'm just a parent in this context so I don't have contact with an exams officer. Thank you for the clarification though. :)

I think Scotland solve the problem by having drama from the drama department and dance is done by the PE dept.

Not sure that's relevant, deste - it's the qualification, not the dept that delivers it which is in question.

There seem to be a couple of Drama teachers on here so I thought I'd mention that I have been tweeting with @DramaTeacherUK who is working through some ideas with other Drama teachers under the hashtag #creativefightback in case anyone is interested.

Well I can see where Gove is coming from.My friend and her DH were furious when their DD was pushed into lots of performing arts type courses because she was not considered to be very academic.
On the other hand I would guess drama and dance would be useful to any primary school teacher or TA to have as well as nursery staff. In fact I would have thought that would number more than actually use something like physics in their job.

I want doctors to have learned the subtleties of addressing others both in giving and getting information.

I want scientists and business leaders to learn to use their imagination and to remove the fear of the unknown to make leaps in discovery and innovation.

I want architects to know how they set the scene for the everyday dramas that play out in our lives, knowing how the atmosphere influences reaction.

I want our politicians to get a feel for the powerful audience watching their moves and to understand the importance of trust.

I want all those who work in caring roles put themselves in the shoes of others and read body language.

Much more than this I want all our young people leaving school knowing how to read others, how to project themselves with confidence, how to speak in a way that will have people listen, to create and innovate, to know how an atmosphere can influence and to untangle manipulation. I want them to be aware of the power of their own body, to respect it and to respect that of others, to feel and move understand not just learn.

There are jobs where you can't draw a direct link between performing arts and the role but there are many where it can move you from good to great and the 'soft' interpersonal skills are important out of the work environment too, within families, with friends, all of life.

I think my want for this is greater because I went to a school which didn't respect the arts, which focused on the academics and I do feel let down by that. I have two children the oldest of has ASD, it is only by seeing what they have gained from being taught drama and dance and all the surrounding skills that I realise what I lost and am only catching up with now at nearly 35.

I know this is a long ramble-rant, it probably won't be read by many and will be scoffed at and torn apart but I am just realising how angry this is making me and I needed to get it out.

If you have read this, even if you don't agree, thank you.

Having come from a country where drama is not taught in school and written correctness has traditionally been valued over oral presentation, I never cease to feel astonished by how confident British youngsters come across and how good they are at interpersonal skills.

I am very, very glad that my own children will have passed through the system before this teaching is abolished. They will both do far better interviews than I have ever been able to do and if they have to sell something- well, I'd rather buy off them than off me.

Just want to add to Felicity's list - a lot of performers go into role play work for all sorts of industries - NHS, banks, law firms, oil companies are just some that come to mind.

In fact, actors can turn their hand to an amazing array of jobs so to say the skills are not transferable is just plain wrong.