Getting a tiny bit feminist on the teacher's ass!

[SolidGoldBrass]

I didn't raise my voice. I didn't unshave my legs or anything.
It just so happened that DS and I bumped into his class teacher at the playground this afternoon and we had a pleasant chat; the teacher turns out to have DC of her own, of a similar age to DS. She mentioned something about girls being very different to boys. I very very gently said that this was in fact rubbish and suggested she read Delusions of Gender, and added that I thought every teacher should read it as a lot of the stuff about gender difference you hear these days was not only wrong but dangerous...

I'm going to be 'one of THOSE mothers' forever, aren't I?

you just chose that your boys shouldn't play with dolls because they are boys.

You are the one deciding things based on gender.

I'm very proud of dd for trying to do something about it. One of the things she pointed out to me during a late night rant(!) was that her subjects attract the more thoughtful, sensitive boys- (philosophy and theatre studies) - so she is wondering how much worse it is in the traditional "boy" subjects like physics.

It is depressing that it hasn't changed. Every generation seems to say "oh, well, it takes time".......

rollmopses yes, that's what we're saying. No-one actually thinks "I am a girl so I can't do engineering" but that is what happens time and time again, just subconciously.

So glad you're on the same page as us.

DD's generally have more opportunities than DS's. Girls outperform boys at school, and there are more female graduates than male.

Women are even about to be (already are?) given jobs purely for being women, with quota's and suchlike.

Women are bolstered and carried and encouraged and supported every bloody step of the way. It's bloody embarrassing.

I heartily wish feminists would stop portraying us as incapable victims and allow us to achieve on our own merit.

Fact is, most women like to pootle along, doing our thing in life without being told that we need to 'empower' our daughters every 5 minutes, and shoehorn them into jobs they have no fucking interest in.

Yeah, sigmunde, that'll be why there's still a 30% pay gap

And why, when women have children, their careers basically never recover.

That's why there are only 4 women in Cabinet, then?

If you want to earn the same, don't leave the job market for years. Have your baby and go back a few weeks later, like every other woman does that doesn't want to be left behind. Why don't you ask successful businesswomen what they did? Unless they were working for themselves, I highly doubt they took much time off.

Harsh, but it's a fact. Stop expecting employers to subsidize you financially for you own life choices.

Maybe there are only 4 women in the cabinet because they were the only ones good enough for the job, or that wanted it enough.

I suppose you could introduce women only shortlists...oh yeah, Harriet Harman already did and Dave Cameron implemented it. Great.

"Women are even about to be (already are?) given jobs purely for being women, with quota's and suchlike.

Women are bolstered and carried and encouraged and supported every bloody step of the way. It's bloody embarrassing."

Could you say a bit more about these to statements? And show some evidence?

SigmundeFraude - fantastic post, summarises all that's wrong with the current society as far as gender is concerned.

Hmm careers DO and CAN recover post children...mine has. I work for a forward thinking company who recognise working parents have different needs and address these in order to retain talent.

Lurcio, yup fine line between tough woman and ball breaker. Still prefer it to being overlooked, but should never be a case of either or.

Sigmund, I took a whole year off, I am on the the best paid women in my company, I have not suffered. Some companies are not run by idiots.

SGB YANBU

I am one of those mothers too. Many people in this thread have spoken extremely eloquently about conditioning so won't add to that.

In my own experience, I was born and brought up in the Basque Country (North Spain), in a culture that is closer to a matriarchy (without being one) than the rest of the neighbouring cultures. I never really noticed the effect of growing there until I came to live here. I was never told that I had to be anything because of my gender, nor were my brothers. It wasn't perfect, my parents fulfilled the stereotypes mostly but the messages for us were just to be the best that we could be and these were mirrored across our (basque) society in general (lots of spanish influence still, which at that point was deeply sexist). I didn't see getting married/having children as an objective, just as something you do as you go along doing other things in your life, like other women around me did.
Within a few weeks of arriving here I was told (by a man) that I had it easy, if I couldn't get a job in London, I could just get married and have children. A girl told me that I could get my boyfriend to pay for me and keep my own money for my little luxuries. I was surprised, as I never thought on these lines, and as far as I could remember, none of my friends back home had spoken on those terms.
With time I realised how relentlessly women and men are pressured to conform here, to be pretty or a lad, to be a bit of an airhead and giggly or butch, the blonde bimbo jokes, the inescapable stereotyping. It is not surprising that our children grow into what society tells them to be, it seems such an uphill not to.
If gender stereotypical traits were innate, I wouldn't have been so surprised by all that categorising, but I was. It must have been that the social conditioning I was subjected to was different.
I am married now, at home I do the DYI, sort out the computer, do the accounts. I dress in very feminine dresses with high heels and put make up on. My DH does the creative stuff, most of the childcare, tells stories, likes football and will get rid of spiders. We believe in division of labour according to strengths, not along gender lines. We hope our DDs will get some of that.
I don't think anyone against gender stereotyping is saying everyone is the same, but actually that everyone is different and that gender doesn't explain the innate differences more than hair colour could. I believe parenting would be easier if we talk about our children being children rather than insisting they are "girls" and "boys".

Not really, I think I was perfectly clear in my statements there.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20322317

There is a whole wealth of info out there about the cosseting of women. Suggest you go google it, like I did.

SF So there were only 4 women good enough for the job, and women in general are not good enough to be in the cabinet? Because it's not like this is some new and shocking thing, that women are underrepresented in politics.

And if women AREN'T good enough to be in cabinet, maybe we need to start asking questions about how women are being educated or about the culture of being in politics that means women aren't suited to it.

If men want men's refuges, then they can fund them and set them up. Y'know like the women did.

If men want to meet the same standards women do at school and university then they need to work harder in the current system to do so. Y'know like the women did.

If men feel that quotas (if they actually exist in the uk) unfairly promote women over men then they need to work harder and smarter to show they are the better candidates. Y'know like the women did.

If men feel that maternity leave is unfair and unequal then maybe they could campaign for it to be parental leave that either parent could take.

If you're happy pootling around sigmund then why are you bothering your pretty little head with all this talk about issues bigger than the cleanliness of your front step? I'm sure there's some washing that needs doing or a neighbour to be gossiped about?

'Sigmund, I took a whole year off, I am on the the best paid women in my company, I have not suffered. Some companies are not run by idiots.'

Yes, you were carried. Lucky some companies can afford to carry you, a lot can't.

SF,surely you understand that isn't about cosseting women but removing barriers to promotion?! Two enormously different things! Women for YEARS have enabled men to progress at the sacrifice of their own careers, this is merely addressing the balance.

Yes, there are companies, that recognise individual ability and make their decisions based on that. Too many, however, pass over the CVs with large gap in them.
It is a reality that taking years off to look after children, can and often does, end one's career. Not for all, though.
One must decide what is the better choice for one's family after children are born, to stay home and, highly likely, end one's high-paying career. Or go back to work immediately and miss out being with children.
Grim reality but one that's not a surprise to anybody.
If fathers took years off work to look after children, do you think they could step back where they left off. No. Their career, as they knew it, would be over.
Not much gender difference there.

And for those men who have children and life changes not a jot... Who carries them? Oh yeah...women.

'And if women AREN'T good enough to be in cabinet, maybe we need to start asking questions about how women are being educated or about the culture of being in politics that means women aren't suited to it.'

It would be a far more balanced discussion, if we also accepted the fact that a lot of women simply don't want it.

I'd also imagine my firm views it more as "investing" in their future leaders and success than "carrying"... But that's semantics.

I worry when I read of mothers having such views... What sort of victim mentality they instil in their sons.

Women don't want it? Evidence?

'If men want to meet the same standards women do at school and university then they need to work harder in the current system to do so. Y'know like the women did.'

The current system favours girl's methods of learning, a big reason why boys are failing. This is fairly common knowledge.