Getting a tiny bit feminist on the teacher's ass!

[SolidGoldBrass]

I didn't raise my voice. I didn't unshave my legs or anything.
It just so happened that DS and I bumped into his class teacher at the playground this afternoon and we had a pleasant chat; the teacher turns out to have DC of her own, of a similar age to DS. She mentioned something about girls being very different to boys. I very very gently said that this was in fact rubbish and suggested she read Delusions of Gender, and added that I thought every teacher should read it as a lot of the stuff about gender difference you hear these days was not only wrong but dangerous...

I'm going to be 'one of THOSE mothers' forever, aren't I?

No we don't, nor do I believe we should.

DrJohnson

That's an assertion, not a fact unless you can quote the evidence

I grew up with brothers, I have 3 DSs and have lived in an all male household for over 20 years. Of course there individual differences, DS1 went to ballet, DS3 is artistic and would always spend ages drawing, they loved playing with a toy kitchen- I could go on and on BUT I find they think differently. I was always having to say 'but this is what women do' when they thought me odd. Now they have girlfriends it is like a breath of fresh air - they follow my thought patterns and I don't constantly have to explain,
If you watch boys playing the game is the thing- girls will chat and find out things about each other. My DS once spent a week doing activities with a boy he found he got on well with- he didn't even know his name at the end! A 14 yr old girl would have known the life history in that time!
Boys wrestle at every opportunity - for fun. The odd girl might like it but other girls won't like it- not because it isn't expected- just because like me - it is irritating! As an adult I had to leave the room and let them get on with it - it still irritates.
Everyone can find exceptions- I am talking about generalities.

There is also the point that lower marks at school may not represent an actual disadvantage later in life. Lots of things influence employers: numbers on a paper is only one of them.

The overconfidence of my male undergraduate, which prevented him from double checking the requirements of the class and getting a First, may actually help him to convince a future that he has more potential than his more diffident female colleague who did get a First. You would have to see the whole career trajectory of these two people to decide who has actually been disadvantaged.

"future employer"

And lots of boys don't fit the stereotype - I agree with the point this morning that boys take up a lot if the attention in the classroom and dominate debates - but mine didn't- they all got the same comments that I did at school - you need to speak up and take part. My DS is trying to get a job at the moment and the one thing he is poor at is 'selling himself'.
I think that a lot is down to personality.

A few years ago, in a staff meeting, we were moderating writing levels. It was year 1 and they had written stories about dragons. There was no other criteria- just a dragon. They did not know what others were writing. There were no names ( they were hidden on the back) so that we wouldn't be influenced.
After a while I realised that you could tell which were written by boys and which by girls. I was right every time, when we looked at the end. Any friendly dragons belonged to girls, any chatty dragons belonged to girls, any swords belonged to boys. People may not like it but it was what happened. I think they were very young to think 'I must have a fight' - they were at the age mentioned over stickers where they don't all realise that there is a 'boys' sticker.

Maybe girls are influenced by society because they liked it. I had access to all the boys toys- I was happy to climb trees, play at cowboys and Indians, roller skate etc , but most of my brother's toys left me cold- I loved my dolls. I liked sewing and knitting and still do- I don't see why this is second class and I should have been encouraged down more boyish routes. Early on I was really pleased to be a girl- it seemed much the best deal to me.

"Maybe girls are influenced by society because they liked it"

I would say thats very true for me and agreed, I dont like the inference this makes me, (or anyone else) inferior.

My best friend is always going on about gender being a social construct, etc...and then talks about how, when she has two children, she wants girls. Or gay boys.

I think it's a spectrum, and the majority of people do fall somewhere in the "traditional gender traits" area, due to hormones and brain chemistry, whatever. But not ALL do, and we need to be respectful of that.

It's damaging for anyone to force gender stereotypes on children, but it's, IMO, also damaging to act as though there are NO innate differences. Children are not born blank slates, gender wise. That poor man who killed himself after being raised as a girl, for instance. :(

Which man Cheerful?

I hold feminist beliefs, and used to think that boys and girls were the same, until I became a teacher.

20 years teaching in a mixed secondary, and I do think they are different. I teach both textiles and graphics. Graphics is usually 85% boys, and textiles is usually 100% girls. Same teacher, same kids, same expectations. Textiles is the only subject across the country that has such a low number of male entrants that they fail to register nationally. This is despite national and school programmes to recruit more boys.

Make of it what you will....

David Reimer, Angel.

What a horrible story Cheerful :(

This cements to me there are inherent differences. Perhaps not quite as extreme as socitety makes there to be, but your right -to deny any differences at all is damaging.

Wow, a lot of the posters on here seem stuck in the 70s.

Clinical Neurology has proven biological differences in terms of the structure and function of the male vs female brain.

Behavioural psychologists performed dangerous experiments trying to prove gender is a social construct. I can't remember the name of the case, but there was a famous one where a baby boy had his penis chopped off, the psychologists and parents tried to raise the baby as a girl. She later had a sex change, then killed herself.

I also think some children fall into traditional gender roles because they are people pleasers. In fact, I think that is true of both of mine, but it means their social behaviour is vastly different because they both want to fit in with the group.

Dd works incredibly hard to present an image of a mature, responsible, hard working and caring person, because that is what her peer group likes to see and she is afraid to lose friends if she appears different.

Ds in the meantime finds he can be popular by not taking school (or anything else) seriously, but just mucking around.

Same motivation, different results.

"Graphics is usually 85% boys, and textiles is usually 100% girls. Same teacher, same kids, same expectations."

How do you mean same expectations? Do the peer groups of those boys have the same expectations on them to do textiles? Surely not? Or do you think peer group expectations do not matter?

When I was at secondary we had a choice between textiles and woodwork. I was pretty bad at both but possibly marginally better at woodwork. So I chose textiles, because I felt if I chose woodwork I would need to be good at it to justify my decision; otherwise, people would be asking why I'd chosen it and make fun of me. Textiles were the default position so left me nothing to prove. The only girls who ever chose woodwork were the ones who were exceptionally good at it so had the confidence to make an unusual decision. Iirc no boys chose textiles.

Also all my textiles classes are usually killing themselves to get A*. Graphics are happy to get a C. Same teacher, same expectations etc etc...

orangeandlemons Wed 20-Feb-13 19:39:59
"Also all my textiles classes are usually killing themselves to get A*. Graphics are happy to get a C. Same teacher, same expectations etc etc... "

But are they the same expectations from their peer groups?

His name was David, Scheherazade.

I went to college to do an hnd in fashion technolgy.
there were 2 men in the group of 15ish. both were foreign.

obviously society had different constraints.

Good point Cory! I think their peer's expectations may be slightly different, but they seem much much more laid back and more relaxed than the girls. Also occasionally ( alas very occasionally) a group of boys can turn very competitive and strive to beat each other to get the highest marks, whereas the girls tend to help each other and support each other more.

Actually, the main thing is, the emphasis on gender difference is only important if it's hierarchical. If males and females were equal, stupid people wouldn't be so frightened about blurring the lines. The whole obsession with boys are this and girls are that is based on the idea that what is masculine is right, normal, praiseworthy and what is feminine is inferior. So the little girl who wants to do 'boy' things is generally indulged, the little boy who wants 'girly' things is regarded with suspicion and fright, or punished. Just think about the words 'tomboy' and 'sissy' and the connotations they hold.

I can't see why any of it is important. When you give birth you have no idea what you are getting- and you have to respond, support and nurture the child that you have, and not the one you want. I know many people who do not meet their parent's expectations. I have a friend who is a country person, no interest in appearance, clothes- never wears a skirt and loathes shopping. Her mother was a real townie and wanted a DD to go shopping with, she was still trying to buy her a dress when she was an adult.
You have parents who refuse to dress their girl in pink and yet they get one who adores it- other parents who go overboard with pink and their DD rejects it all.
I brought up my DCs the same- they are as different as can be- I don't see how you can make a DC into something they are not without causing a lot of unhappiness.
Although you can't stereotype them- they don't fit in lots of ways- I can tell you that it is very different from living in a house with females.

I don't see why we don't like boyish characteristics- they are frowned on ( unless done by a girl and then it seems praiseworthy!) Somehow society now seems to not only look down on boys doing 'girly' things but even in girls doing 'girly' things! I get the distinct impression that it is better for a girl to make something out of wood than to make it from wool - despite the fact that many love knitting.

Yanbu ive read the book