to think the south east has started to expel the poor

[ubik]

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/13/london-council-relocation-benefits-cap

Basically Camden Council cannot cover the housing benefit for these families due to government cap on benefits. These families would have to find an extra £90/week to make up the shortfall. As I understand it, there is nowhere in the south east cheap enough for these people to live.

So they are considering moving them to a cheaper region up north, hundreds of miles away from their families, schools, jobs, friends, neighbours.

I find this incredibly depressing as someone who grew up in a normal family in London.
Is the south east expelling the poor?

I was just thinking that r.e single parents YellowandGreen.

I am a single parent. I live quite near two relatives who I depend on for childcare. If I had to move to another town, or a long commute away I would not be able to continue to work in my job.
How is that a good result?

I am sorry your life is so shit racmum. But nobody gets 500 a week except the landlords.

"I find it hard to understand peoples passive acceptance that whole swathes of London are now too expensive for any normal family to settle down in.

Its only in Westminster and Chelsea , come on!!! London is HUUUUGGGEEEE

but I do also agree we need more Council Houses as this private rental malarkey is costing a bloody furtune

Racmum- how many as a percentage are 'fallen on genuine hard times' and how many are 3rd generation unemployed?

Hmm! Will be interesting to know where all those NMW folk who London relies upon are going to go. They won't be able to afford £3k a year for rail travel in from cheaper areas and yet apparently they need to be shipped out of London because others are envious of them living there. Odd.

look at a tube map

look at the the end of each tube line , waaay out

thats where alot of us live

as it does not costs £3000 a year either in Oyster cards

I do understand how house buying works; most of my family have managed to buy. Mostof them pay less a month as couples than I do on my own in rent.
My sister paid a 5 % deposit on her flat.

Yes, you have costs, but generally "money pit" type houses are, er, the big old ones. Maybe if you live in a "money pit" you should...downsize to something manageable.
Anyway at the end of the day, if you pay your mortgage you can't just be moved on because someone decided that your neighbourhood is now cool.

But I'll say it again - Camden cannot find a rentable property for these families in the entire south east!

That's shocking ubik. Must look up the rental caps and check out RightMove etc.

What should be done is:

a) Reintroduction of rent controls, so that EVERYONE who has to live in the private rented sector pays a reasonable rent and is allowed to keep some of their income rather than paying their landlords pension/mortgage (and this is better for the economy too since it is not based on property speculation).

b) Land value tax. This is the fairest tax and its introduction could (in theory) be used to cut most other taxes. It would mean that the very rich are taxed effectively on unearned and often inherited property and that someone buying a £20 million pound house in London would pay significantly more than someone buying a bog standard terrace (where at the moment they would pay the same council tax in some boroughs).

Neither of these are likely to be introduced until the rental class votes on mass and has a louder voice than the older generation who tend to be owners/landlords.

But it shuldn't be that way!

I don't agree 'that's just the way it is'. It is the way we let it be.

I always find the "well it's shit for me so suck it up" voices so depressing and nihilistic.
It's an attitude that ensures nothing changes for anyone, and that those at the bottom get screwed.
If you look at history, do you think the people who really changed things; abolished slavery, won the vote etc said "it's shit for me too. That's just the way it is". I doubt it.
And, no, I am not equating the housing crisis with those things, just pointing out that a little less negativity is needed to effect change.
The more people who just accept the way that the UK is becoming less and less equal and fair, the worse it will get.

Good societies understand this.

Yes - that's why we have the Welfare State. Beveridge understood housing was an immense cost, that's why we built huge council estates and forced people out of their homes to live in them. You didn't get a choice, your home was usually demolished!

That's why we now have housing benefit - so that people can afford to house themselves, and welfare benefits so that people aren't destitute.

All it means is that people can't live exactly where they choose - but then neither can anyone except the very rich!

When private rents were controlled, there was a massive shortage of private rental accommodation and most of it was substandard, unfit for human habitation and sometimes a death trap through over-occupation and lack of investment.

Houses with shared "kitchens" on the landings and one bathroom shared between two flats. I know, I lived in one!

Yellow - The reason it is the way it is is because the people with money and power like the equilibrium and mp's want to remain elected so they do what the majority/those with power want them to do. All mp's know there is a great big housing crisis happening but they are all very wishy washy about it because most of them are either landlords or have very expensive houses which they don't want to see devalue. Trying to get mp's to change this would be like expecting turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Agree on both those points Orwellian.

About land value tax I mean-x post

Will be interesting to know where all those NMW folk who London relies upon are going to go.

If they are employed, their employment will be taken into account. They won't be going anywhere they can't get to work.

It's those who don't work who'll be moved out.

I don't agree 'that's just the way it is'. It is the way we let it be.

I think you'll find it's the way the vast majority want it! Whether you think it's right or wrong to have massive private investment in the private rental sector, that's what there is.

Any whiff of rent controls would result in a glut of properties on the market, and that would lead to a crash. You might think that would be a good thing, but for the vast majority of people it would be a disaster.

Try looking at it from the point of view of the majority - who don't claim benefits, who pay taxes, who are just as constrained by affordability and employment as anyone else.

And who voted Tory and Lib Dem at the last election to get rid of Gordon Brown and the "benefits culture".

I'm not one of them - but you have to understand what's going on here. There is no socialist utopia, never has been and never will be.

Olgaga - But it was only that way because there was no legislation to ensure private housing was up to standard and because landlords could stop renting and sit on an empty property without consequences. If there was greater tax on both BTL and those with empty houses or multiple houses, then there would not be this situation as those landlords who did not want to rent out their place below the rent control levels would sell (rather than face a punitive tax) and there would be more properties on the market for those wanting to buy. The situation is only the way it is because there are so many laws and regulations which currently massively favour and encourage people to speculate on property.

"Any whiff of rent controls would result in a glut of properties on the market, and that would lead to a crash. You might think that would be a good thing, but for the vast majority of people it would be a disaster."

ha ha ha!
Very good.
Just like cutting housing benefit has resulted in landlords reducing rents.
Or just like the re-introduction of the NMW saw thousands of small companies go bust overnight.

Oh..wait..

is that so Olgaga? That of you work you won't have to move? I thought it was because the council couldn't afford to house them, I didn't realise their employment status came into it.

I do love these divide and rule stories, it really is playing into the governments hands. Everyone forgets that most benefits are paid to people IN WORK!! Because them and their rich friends want to make even more money so wont pay a proper wage.

It reminds me of a quote I read;

A rich man, working man and poor man are sat around a table. They are given 10 biscuits. The Rich man takes 9 of them and then says to the working man "watch out for him, he's trying to take your biscuit" while slowly and quietly backing away laughing

Its said we fall for this shit

sad even

But don't you see, it wasn't up to standard because landlords wouldn't invest in it because they would get a better return for their money elsewhere. You can't force people to invest their money in a sector where the return is less than they can get in long-term financial products.

Private rentals are much higher quality now - whatever you like to think - because there is an average 5% return.

More properties for people to buy? No, because the number of properties won't affect affordability. Look at what's happened in Ireland! Those who can't get a mortgage now still won't be able to get a mortgage. You would just end up with a lot of people going broke, and a lot of empty, worthless property on the market which will be owned by banks - who will just sit on it until the good times return with a new electoral cycle. They wouldn't have long to wait, because no Government who allowed that to happen would ever get re-elected.

You think banks would undercut the mortgage market, and their own investments, by selling off cheap? No way.

Governments don't survive unless they keep the voting majority happy. If this Govt loses the next election it won't be because of the benefits cap. It'll be because middle-income homeowners are struggling.

This has prompted me to do a bit research into private rentals locally. I live in Essex and the only accommodation available for £500pm are studio flats, so not suitable for families. The £500pm studio flats are only available in one of the most deprived areas of the county - anywhere even slightly more desirable and you need at least £600pm.

TBH I hadn't realised the shortage of available accommodation for families in a very poor and deprived area. I'm rather shocked.