To wonder if there's more to the Popes resignation than meets the eye?

[KenAdams]

The lack of notice just seems somewhat odd.

[chibi]

whatever else he may have done as a youth, it's not as though there aren't enough reasons to condemn him for what he has done as an adult

he has had many opportunities to prioritise the safety of children over that of priests, and has always preferred the latter- moving abusers on to new parishes etc.

it is unfortunate that anyone should suffer the infirmities of age, but what whatever might be going on with his health in no way cancels out the many, many terrible things he has done, and helped to cover up.

however the idea that he might be resigning to spare the church a scandal tickles me- the only thing that he could possibly have done to scandalise those were embroidered jackals that fancy themselves princes of the church would be to have had consensual sex with an adult woman.

possibly whilst using a condom.

[chibi]

sorry, extra word added.

to clarify, i was calling the cardinals et al embroidered jackals

though whitened sepulchres would also do.

[Astley]

LRD, your ignorance is clear. The Catholic church does not condem people for being homosexual.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

astley, you seem perfectly happy to criticize other people, so why do you think it's not on for me to criticize? Does this 'he who is without sin' thing only apply to other people, not you and not the Pope?

I agree with chibi that there is plenty enough he did as an adult to criticize him for.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

astley - no, I never said it did, did I? I was referring to gay sex. You're absolutely welcome to get into a discussion of my ignorance of the Catholic Church but I have a sneaking suspicion it will make you look foolish.

[seeker]

"So basically, you will forever condemn a man for something he couldn't control as a child"

Nope. He's done plenty of things as an adult that are worthy of condemnation- I'm prepared to accept he had no choice over the Hitler Youth thing.

[seeker]

"LRD, your ignorance is clear. The Catholic church does not condem people for being homosexual."

It condemns them for having sex, though.

[chibi]

the catholic church is increasingly as relevant to my life as medieval ideas about humours and trepannation

i say this as a raised catholic person

[Astley]

The Catholic Church always forgives. Even acts of murder, including abortion can be forgiven if the person is truly repentant. The Catholic church only judges the action, not the person.

[seeker]

Ah. Statements, not discussion. How very boring.

[chibi]

sorry,that was prompted by as post that the church does not condemn homosexuality

gosh that's big of them.

they do however condemn:

having priests accountable for abuse
women controlling their fertility
people loving each other, if their genitals match
liberation theology

[Astley]

How can their be a discussion? I believe the Pope is a good man. I believe he had does the best he could for the Church.

He has made mistakes, but I do not believe he has tried to 'hide' abuse so Priests could continue it. That, to me, is frankly, laughable.

I think now he is stepping down he should be allowed to rest and live out the rest of his life.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm glad you believe the Pope is a good man. But, as you see, this is how there can be discussion: here we are discussing it all!

Not everyone shares your belief that the Catholic Church is very forgiving. I am aware that that is the doctrine, but I do not feel the attitude matches up. I also feel that there is serious need to consider the abuses perpetrated by the Church, and the Church's position on issues such as the status of women and gay people.

No one is saying you shouldn't disagree, but to question even the fact we're discussing it does annoy me, because it's not your right to shut down discussion.

[seeker]

You feel that he has done everything he could to address the issue of child abuse within the Catholic Church?

You feel his statements on the use of condoms to prevent the speed of disease are wise, humanitarian and in the best interests of the people of sub Saharan Africa?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

chibi - yep. Me too. But then, it is relevant to so many people's lives and it makes me so worried that there are lots of people (lots of women) who are genuinely terrified because they believe what they are being told and they are also put in impossible positions by it all.

(Obviously I know you know that, just saying why I can't just say 'oh, it's not relevant').

[TheMagicMumber]

"I do not believe he has tried to 'hide' abuse so Priests could continue it. That, to me, is frankly, laughable."

Seriously, you need to do some reading. Then laugh (or probably weep).

[somebloke123]

Can't think it's anything to do with the Hitler Youth. This has been known for ages and when he was in it membership was absolutely compulsory. Families of children who refused to be in it tended to get "disappeared".

Dementia seems the simplest explanation. He is reckoned to be a brilliant man academically and probably would be more conscious and sensitive than most about a deterioration of his mental faculties.

But who knows? There are bound to be suspicions and conspiracy theories involving Vatican politics and the Mafia, as still surround the mysterious death of John Paul 1:

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1383867/Was-Pope-John-Paul-I-murdered-John-Julius-Norwichs-burning-question-.html#axzz2KgI2tUDp

[Astley]

Seeker.

1. Yes. He was the first senior member of the clergy to address the issue. He actually condemned the abusers and started investigations, something that had not happened under the previous Pope.
   

1. The Pope has stated that abstinence is the best protection against the spread of HIV, which it clearly is! However, he has said that when this is not possible a person with HIV should wear a condom.

[chibi]

i know, lrd, the post about what the church condemns just tickled me.

if he hasn't helped cover up child abuse, why have so few priests been defrocked, or turned over to the law, when their abuses have been uncovered?

as leader of the church, if he was in no position to do so, who was?

and it may be that these priests can and should be forgiven, that they can't help themselves. what kind of monster forgives them and then moves them on to a new parish to start all over again?

he knew, and his priority was to protect priests, and the church. not to protect children.

you can tapdance about the theological basis and justification for all the rest - homosexuality, condoms, etc. but there is surely no justification or excuse for this.

[TheBigJessie]

He's 86. I can well believe he's resigning for exactly the reasons he said. He's now a year older than John Paul II was when he died.

I think it's evident that he probably developed very strong ideas about ill Popes as he watched John Paul's last few years. Now he is Pope himself, there is also a selfish motivation to advocate papal retirement , as well as his probably pre-existing ideological belief that Popes need to be capable.

[LadyBigtoes]

Yes, I think there might be more to it but it's his prerogative not to say really. I wondered if he just feels he's near the end and doesn't want a media circus around his last days like the last pope.

However I also feel totally meh about the whole thing - popes don't exactly have a history of impeachable behaviour generally speaking, especially not the further back you go, and he's no exception.

There was a very funny tweet DP showed me along the lines of: Gay marriage legalised - pope resigns #foundsomeone! :o :o :o

[cory]

Astley, surely the problem with the abusive priests is not that the Church has forgiven them but that the Church has systematically then to carry on in their priestly function, i.e. in a position to perpetrate more abuse- and that a great number of them have done so. Surely it would have been easy enough to tell a child sex offender that the penance the Church lays on him is to leave the priesthood? That would not preclude forgiveness, would it?

It is quite clear that concerns have been raised for a very long time about sex offenders being moved on to new parishes. Surely as a cardinal, if these concerns are raised about an area of the church for which you are responsible, it is your duty to investigate? Just as if you are the head of the Met, it is your duty to make sure that any concerns about police corruption get a full investigation? And if such concerns are regularly raised, on a massive scale, and the head of the police does nothing, then surely there would be a good case for complaining about him?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

'you can tapdance about the theological basis and justification for all the rest - homosexuality, condoms, etc. but there is surely no justification or excuse for this.'

Absolutely.

It is piss-poor to be saying 'oh, he's the first person who did something, yada yada'.

Why on earth didn't someone else do something sooner? Isn't that a huge cause of shame that should be apologized for?

[seeker]

"1. Yes. He was the first senior member of the clergy to address the issue. He actually condemned the abusers and started investigations, something that had not happened under the previous Pope.

1. The Pope has stated that abstinence is the best protection against the spread of HIV, which it clearly is! However, he has said that when this is not possible a person with HIV should wear a condom."
   
2. So why have so few people been prosecuted under his authority? Why did he collude in the cover up as a Cardinal?
   
3. No he didn't. He said that a male prostitute with HIV could wear a condom.

[amarone]

I think Tony Blair is applying for the job.