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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that just because they have found the bones of Richard III, that doesn't automatically mean that he was actually A Really Bloody Nice Bloke?

238 replies

BalloonSlayer · 05/02/2013 08:31

Constant quotes from the Richard III Society:

"We're going to completely reassess Richard III, we're going to completely look at all the sources again, and hopefully there's going to be a new beginning for Richard as well." Why? It's a skeleton? Was it holding a signed confession from Henry VII of the murder of the Princes in the Tower?

Richard III Society member Philippa Langley, originator of the search, said on a Channel 4 documentary earlier: "It doesn't look like the face of a tyrant. I'm sorry but it doesn't. WTF?

Why does this change anything at all?

OP posts:
sleepyhead · 05/02/2013 13:45

What tiggy said - they found scoliosis, not a humpback. An S-shaped deformity which I imagine can't have been comfortable and would have made him more prone to arthritis etc though posture issues/uneven wear on joints if he'd lived long enough, but probably not all that evident to an observer on a day to day basis.

I also found the "he can't possibly have been disabled" thing from the Ricardians rather distasteful, but I guess they were just ignorant about the range and effects of spinal abnormalities.

SirBoobAlot · 05/02/2013 14:02

A priest there? Really? Hmm And if they had found out it was just an unlucky Roman solider? Then it would have looked foolish.

The standard was unnecessary, and made her look a bit mad, which was a shame because there was obviously a lot of research that had gone into it.

The "he can't possibly have been disabled" aspect didn't surprise me at all. Right up until - well, until now, in certainly places - recently, disability was seen as a curse from God. So for the Tudors to say he was disabled was equal to saying that HVII had done the right thing by removing someone unloved by God from the throne, and therefore saving the people of England from the Devil (Long Live The King, etc...). The RIII love crew disagree with that, and wanted to prove that everything negative said about him was pure propaganda. I don't think it was distasteful, and certainly wasn't a slight against disabled people; it was simply their love for an individual VS the need to dispel a myth.

cory · 05/02/2013 14:08

SirBoob, different medieval takes on disability discussed further upthread. It's not quite as simple as "in the past they thought X".

But the religious ideas governing graves is funny; there is some regulation that they have to be re-interred in consecrated ground; dh who is an archaeologist always felt that was hard on the early Saxon burials.

Ime archaeologists hate finding skeletons (unless they are of really famous people) because of all the paperwork associated with exhuming a dead body: particularly frustrating on the last day of the dig with the machines waiting to move in and the developer who is paying hopping mad with impatience.

sleepyhead · 05/02/2013 14:12

Sorry SirBoob, I think it does at least partially say something about how disability is thought of in the present rather than the past - as pp have said it's not so simple as in the bad old days disability=bad.

There were a couple of mentions of "well how could he have got armour on?". I think there was at least some romanticism of him as heroic warrior king who they wanted to be bodily "perfect" to fit their image. Of course he can still be a warrior king and have scoliosis.

SirBoobAlot · 05/02/2013 14:15

No, I know Cory. It's very interesting. Just saying why I didn't find it distasteful for those interested who were involved deeply in last nights project to be so adamant he wouldn't be disabled. :)

Yes, skeletons are certainly both a blessing and a curse on a dig!

SirBoobAlot · 05/02/2013 14:18

Disagree sleepy. Think that's a perfectly reasonable question to ask, even now. And if we ask the questions of people in the past - "how could he had got armour on?" - then we can apply the answers to the present - "Around 1% of the UK population have scoliosis, and you wouldn't be able to tell seeing them in the street".

People are afraid to ask questions about disability, and through lack of knowledge comes ignorance, which is far more dangerous. Always better to ask the questions.

Magrathea · 05/02/2013 14:20

I did medieval history at university and studied this period.

Richard was a product of his time, ruthless certainly and able in Government but when you were one of the top nobles in a land which hade been in a state of civil war (on and off) for 100 years then these were qualities you had to have. His governorship of the North was generally thought to be good which is why he was well liked and respected in the Northern counties and had he got the luxury of time and been able to apply that leadership style on the national stage he would probably have gone down as a reasonably decent but somewhat unremarkable medieval monarch. The things he did manage to enact in two and a half years were pretty decent, putting England back in the black and reforming the justice system.

In terms of the princes in the tower, he probably did have them killed, there is also some evidence to suggest he had a hand in Henry VI murder as well. However, this was not unusual for monarchs and nobles at the time, Henry VII had the two strongest male claimants to the Yorkist line killed, one of them (the Earl of Warwick) would never have been a threat to him as he had learning difficulties and could never have been king. Indeed, if we look at other monarchs, Edward III had his own father killed in a very nasty way with a red hot poker, Henry IV had Richard II killed and these are not noted as being particularly tyranical - they are just a product of their times. At that time, England's governance was all out of balance with over mighty nobles and a relatively poor crown and someone always had their eyes on the crown or being the puppet master behind the throne - ruthlessness was just survival.

I dont really hold with the idea that Henry VII had the princes killed - he was certainly capable but I just dont see him having the opportunity and there is a lot of evidence that he would not have made the bid for the crown had Richard not usurped and caused a rift in the nobles.

Bosworth could very easily have gone the other way as most of the nobles held back to see who had the upper hand before committing. If it had gone the other way, Henry Tudor would not have been buried in any church but would most likely been quartered and sent to different parts of the Kingdom as a traitor.

But hey ho, that's history, it all turns on the roll of a dice and thats why I love the subject.

As for where he should be buried, being a Yorkshirewoman and not far from Middleham, my hear says York but in reality, Leicester is probably as good a place as any.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/02/2013 14:30

Re. Henry VIII and Protestantism - while I agree with cory that there were definite changes under Henry VIII, I think we're talking Humanism and a Protestant influence? And Elizabeth I is C of E, but I'm not convinced that is the same thing as Protestantism, at least not the way she set it out. I think it is possible to see some of that individualism in late-medieval Catholicism, too. Lollards believe in something very like 'priesthood of all believers'. So I think the ideas were circulating, but perhaps hadn't yet got to affecting people's views on disability - maybe it just all takes a while to permeate?

GreatUncleEddie · 05/02/2013 14:32

You people who know about this stuff - how bad was it that the bones specialist woman smashed the skull with her mattock? I thought she looked a bit embarrassed Grin

Ormiriathomimus · 05/02/2013 14:37

I don't thnik there is any real evidence that he wasn't a really nice bloke. SHakespeare did a number on him.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/02/2013 14:39

GUE - if you look at the last dozen posts on this thread, there's a specialist posting on it (how cool is that)!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1675971-Richard-III-Day

Magrathea · 05/02/2013 14:44

LRD - I agree that those ideas were starting to take hold around this time, there is evidence that Henry VII was influenced by humanist writings and was very keen to encourage his son in all aspects of knowledge by building a library and collecting a huge number of works on all subjects. We shouldnt also forget that Henry VII pretty well single handedly kept the inquisition out of England. Given the difficulties (and the expense) Henry VI was having with Rome for dispensation for Catherine to marry Henry and the fallout following the death of the last Borgia pope, it is no wonder he was suspicious of the workings of the Catholic church if not the dogma. It is likely he passed this on to his son.

GreatUncleEddie · 05/02/2013 14:46

Thank you LRD - hadn't seen that. So not that bad then, just one of those things. Bet she wished it hadn't been Richard III's skull though, and on tv!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/02/2013 14:53

magrathea - yes, that certainly makes sense. I think England had a long history of being slightly suspicious of the Papacy and much more inclined to be independent of it than some European countries. There hadn't been an English Pope for centuries, and England had backed the 'wrong' Pope during the Schism, which was less than a hundred years before Henry VII came to the throne. So i think he could well have been suspicious.

GUE - god, yes! Poor woman. I've not seen it but I imagine you'd feel awful.

SaggyOldClothCatpuss · 05/02/2013 14:58

I'm a closet Ricardian, but I don't necessarily think he was a jolly nice bloke. I think he was a man who did what he thought was right. I personally don't think he did kill the princes in he tower, but even I be did, I can think of many many monarchs who did awful things. Look at the Tudors. The most blood thirsty bunch of people ever! Henry killed thousands of people, put innocents to death. Murdered an old lady because she had a claim to his throne. Elizabeth murdered her cousin. She ruled the 'Golden Age', is a heroine of history. Edward put his uncle to death. Mary was foul! That's just one branch of the monarchy. Richard was king for 2 years and might have had his nephews killed. What makes him any more evil than any of the others?

IfNotNowThenWhen · 05/02/2013 15:06

I have nothing intelligent to add to this, but this is funny..

Magrathea · 05/02/2013 15:31

Catpuss - He wasnt really better or worse than any of the other monarchs of the time. I think one of Richard's problems is that he didnt have time to be famous for anything else. All the Tudors had long reigns and were famous for acts that had a tumultuous effect on English history so whilst they were bloodthirsty in the main, Elizabeth and Henry VIII kind of get away with it because there are other things to draw our attention, wives, dissolution of the monasteries, Armada etc. The exception to this is probably Mary who, if you did a poll in a shopping centre would probably come out as being the more evil and unhinged of the two.

That coupled with the Tudor (and not forgetting the Woodville) propaganda around Richard has led to our image of him.

LaQueen · 05/02/2013 15:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EllieArroway · 05/02/2013 15:46

ellie it matters because it gives an insight into how accurate the Tudor propaganda was

That's not what I meant.....or what I said. It's matters historically, yes. I was talking about her emotional need for Richard to be one type of person rather than another. That's rather odd.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/02/2013 16:00

LaQ - yes ... I mentioned it on the other thread ... it is fascinating stuff. But it was also about being disabled, I think. Though I'm not sure they'd have thought of it under an umbrella term like 'disabled' at all.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 05/02/2013 16:10

God I love MN sometimes.

Is there a History section?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 05/02/2013 16:12

And as I said ad nauseum on the other thread, i don't think Tricky Dickie would have been regarded as "disabled" at all, rather just another man with another quirk. Deformity and abnormality would have been more common than it is now. I have scoliosis, and so far (age 37) it hasn't stopped me doing anything. Not even donning a suit of armour and wielding a broadsword :)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/02/2013 16:16

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/history_club

There is. Smile

Please tell me you can use a broadsword?!

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 05/02/2013 16:18

Sorry, I was fibbing Grin

I used to do fencing though. Does that count?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 05/02/2013 16:18

Oh that section definitely needs some more traffic!