To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

Bigger profits for large nursery chains? This government is very pro-business after all. Or the government paying lower amounts in ctc and funded places?

So very parent and child orientated then Sam! FFS and they are trying to dress it up a being good for working families. Only a fool would think that!

I think we should reserve childminders/home based care for under 3s with strict ratios, and over 3s should be entitled to free all-day places at state nursery schools with a play based curriculum, if their parents want them to attend.

Well these proposals are not going to result in:

Lower childcare costs for parents
Better care/education for children
Higher wages or better working conditions for staff

So I can only assume they will benefit big business and the Tories.

I honestly think they want a good proportion of women out of the workforce, particularly given that so many women work in public sector jobs.

I am in the NHS, Band 7, salary if full time c. 35K. We will be restructured this year and my salary will almost inevitably go down to about 29 (going on what has happened elsewhere with colleagues/friends in similar positions). Childcare for two is 900 a month but I am bringing in only just over a grand, I am already struggling to manage it and when I looked at one of those calculators to work out how much it was costing me to go to work, realised I am already making a loss as transport costs are so high.

Dh's work won't facilitate any flexible working so we are in a total bind. I could probably do some work in the private sector (am in a therapeutic role) so I can see that the best thing for us is for me to give up work, stay home with the kids in the day and work at evenings and in the weekend to bring in money. The thorny problem of my NHS pension is therefore dealt with, I am out of the public sector, I won't cost any money in terms of future maternity leave/sick leave etc. Perhaps I will be motivated to do some "Big Society" type work for free on the side, they think? The thing is, the worse childcare becomes the more attractive this seems as an option.. especially as simultaneously the demands in the NHS become ever more ridiculous and demanding of personal time.. yet the private sector in the therapies is not where I ever wanted to be. I want to be able to provide a good service to all, not just to thosr who can afford it. But the government really isn't interested in this.

This is not a woman, child or family-friendly change.

I don't think that is a bad idea BoffinMum, though would like some flexibility for 2 year olds to attend nurseries - mixed age groups of 2-5 year olds on a 1:6 ratio in the style of German kindergartens could work. I would also like to see childminders employed by the state rather than self-employed, so they can access training and support, have a manager, and get regular pay, holiday and pensions.

Even with current ratios, under 3s are not always cared for properly in some nurseries who should know better. I had to report a large very well known chain this year for leaving almost 60 children with two carers (one unqualified) because the other staff had phoned in sick. The nursery should have closed for the day, FFS. I have also seen children with skin problems because they are not kept sufficiently clean, children worried about eating, children left on the toilet for ages. For that reason I would hesitate before using a chain nursery. I also have knowledge of a nursery that was awarded outstanding by Ofsted that simply spuriously banned kids for vast periods of time on pseudo-health grounds to keep ratios easier for the staff. It's a racket.

How big is a small group though, sam? 1:4, 1:8, 1:13? How does a class teacher cope with 1:30 then?

It's perfectly possible for a graduate head of room to profitably focus on groups of children for short periods of time and do the paperwork/planning. It's not enough to simply have 1 graduate at the head of a nursery. That's where EYPs are spending kmost of their time and it's a waste.

"I don't think that is a bad idea BoffinMum, though would like some flexibility for 2 year olds to attend nurseries - mixed age groups of 2-5 year olds on a 1:6 ratio in the style of German kindergartens could work. I would also like to see childminders employed by the state rather than self-employed, so they can access training and support, have a manager, and get regular pay, holiday and pensions."u

I agree with almost all of that. But I would lie to see an option for CMs to remain SE if they wanted to be.

I think this is ridiculous - how on earth do they think quality will be any better when there more children in your care it is less likely you can give them quality of care. If I was still a childminder I would be sticking to the old ratios for safety reasons, very hard looking after one baby never mind 2 or 3

How they think the prices are going to go down I don't know, more reason for nurseries, especially the big chains to put prices up.

On the qualifications side - yes it is good for someone looking after your child to have common sense but having a string of GCSE's, A Levels and a degree etc sometimes doesn't make you any better at looking after a child than the one with minimal qualifications. The nursery worker can be trained but what about the childminder who didn't do well at school yet raised a family and has more experience of life and common sense ( I know who I would take and that would be the childminder over an 18 year old for a baby or even a sometimes stroppy 10 year old).

I really do not think Ms Truss has though this out at all

fraktion, a small group for under 2s = 9-12. Small group for 2-3s = 12-16. 3-4s = up to 30 with a teacher and 2 other adults (at least one well qualified, one a support worker/apprentice). A mixed group of 2 year olds as well as 3-4s = maybe 24, with a teacher plus 2-3 adults depending on the number of 2 year olds.

Should have said, still with a 1:3 ratio for under 2s and 1:4 for 2 year olds - I would only want to see ratios relaxed for 3+.

fraktion they don't have a class of 30 on their own anymore, they have teaching assistants to help with reading/writing/displays etc. I know I trained as one at my son's school. They have Level 2 which do the basic assisting with the above and Level 3 who can take over a class or a group of kids in the class who are struggling/misbehaving and teach them separately.

My friend used to be a Primary school teacher and tells me she had no help in the early 80's.

I feel that ratios should be relaxed in after school clubs. School children do not need the same levels of attention as nursery kids.

Some under 3s are not well cared for in nurseries, but some under 3s are not well cared for by childminders either. The problem with stretching ratios is more of an issue in private nurseries where they tend to skimp on staffing - my experience with state nurseries has been that they usually have more than minimal staffing numbers anyway, and always use cover staff for sickness.

There are good and bad private nurseries. Some I have temped in have been great and have not operated at minimum ratio. Others have pushed things a bit quite frankly (I told the temp agency not to ever send me back to two nurseries).

This change to the ratios may create a two tier system... providers that operate well above minimum ratio, and providers who operate at minimum ratio. We may have that now already, as some providers have more staff on duty than others.

As a former child minder before returning to full time work when I used every kind of childcare in the eighties and nineties I see both perspectives. Increasing numbers is a bad idea. Private nurseries will not provide more staff. Whilst there are many good childminders, sadly there are at least as many who do it because they can earn more money than if they go out to work and this will just encourage those with the wrong motives because the good ones will recognise the quality of care they can give will go down if they take on more children. With full pay for holidays and sickness,(which was rare in my day) childminders can make a very good living. My grandchildren go to a childminder who earns nearly twice as much as my daughter and pays no tax because of all the things she can claim for. As for requiring GCSE's in Maths and English, how ridiculous. Some of the best carers of children are those who are least academic. Pre school care is, and should be, just that - not school. A child needs someone caring, sensible, who will play with them, can produce a decent meal, give them a hug if they are sad or hurt, keep them safe; having a piece of paper that says they can do algebra means absolutely nothing, and its this obsession with having these meaningless bits of paper that are ruining our caring services like nursing and midwifery and denying jobs to people who instinctively would do them much better. Private nurseries have to make a profit so the only way to get it cheaper is for state run nurseries (I worked in one for the old London County Council) or workplace creches subsidised by the employer, or get together with two or three other mums and share the services of a nanny in your own home, although thats easier said than done.

Wouldn't those qualifications be those to do with childcare? Someone who is well-educated might be unsuitable caring for small children if their personality is such that they would get bored with it. I think the government (or society?) is in a bit of a bind in that most middle class parents want quick witted, well spoken childcarers, those sort of people who do go into it a bit dewy eyed find better remuneration elsewhere for far less stress, and the few clever people who do continue to enjoy it and have the wherewithal to provide good quality care ( be it a nursery or childminder) can name their price . Don't know if it's true now but when I was entering my late teens in the early nineties, the general impression of choosing preschool childcare as a profession was that it was a thankless job ( in the long run) and courses for it were entered upon only by the most desperate or dimwitted. Knew quite a few women trying to get out of it (and they did).

We need free state nurseries line we had during the war, as childcare needs to be seen as a nation priority rather than a lifestyle accessory for working parents. If we want GDP to increase, women need to be in work.

The Coalition is simply moving the deck chairs on the Titanic at the moment.

sam that's a truly awful idea!! I'm self employed, I don't want to be employed by the state! I like to determine my own pay and holidays thank you very much. I'm also more than capable of accessing training etc. People don't realise just how much support there is for CM's if you want it.
I also don't want to have to "get rid" of my little ones once they reach 3 yo. Most of mine stay with me from being babies till gooing to secondary school.
A decent CM accommdates and can stimulate and educate children of all ages.
The idea of being forced to be part of a state agency of some sort sends shivers down my spine!

I rarely get irate about politics but I am left breathless by the stupidity of the government.

Increased ratios will mean increased profits - no one is going to reduce fees.

I entirely agree that this is a precursor to reducing the free hours funding which barely covers costs as is.

Above all I'm just really angry that the gov is treating us all like stupid morons. This is not something anyone wants. And I bet the well off mums like Truss will be choosing nurseries with more staff not less.

And like everyone I want cuddles for my kid not bloody mandarin. There is a huge amount of research out there that children learn through play - obsessing about writing at 3 is not the answer.

My DS's preschool is perfect - I could cry about these changes.

Elizabeth Truss didn't consult with childcarers themselves, and she's continued to ignore our opinions.

Consequently, she has failed to address the one fundamental and underlying issue - WHY childcare in this country costs the amount that it does.

Tinkering with ratios and qualifications will do nothing to reduce costs for parents. That's what parents have asked for many times. She hasn't talked to them, and she's ignored evidence such as the MN survey, so she wouldn't know about that.

Whoever's interests she is looking out for, it certainly isn't parents' or childcarers'.

I think to really improve early years education we need a change of culture, so that more people understand the value of adults providing enriching experiences for children, and also how much the adults can add to the children's play through their skilled interactions/ talking with them as they play.

Many people seem to think that play is something children always do completely on their own, and that learning happens in a completely different way eg. when they are older or only through structured, adult led activities.

Children learn through play ! Adults can facilitate this !

From what I've seen of Scandinavian Nurseries they are much further on in understanding all of this than we are in the UK - their forest schools look wonderful !

I have a 2yo with life threatening allergies, hyperactivity and probable Autism. (Being assessed in May). I wonder if Ms. Truss could adequately manage his needs AT THE SAME TIME as managing the needs of 3 other DC's, possibly all younger than him?

Considering every local Nursery and preschool has said that they can't manage his needs on a 1:3 ratio, I fail to see how anyone could manage them on a 1:4 ratio...

I struggle enough to manage his needs on a 1:4 ratio (I have 4 DC's), and my older 3 DC's aren't that young at 14, 10 & 9yo, and therefore not needing the same level of care as an under 3yo.

Everyone I know is unhappy with this. Especially the people I know that work for NMW, who already feel awful about leaving their small babies and toddlers in Nurseries with a ratio of 1:3. They know that it will mean their babies and toddlers get far less attention.

Hi all iv worked in a nursery for a good 3 years now however im not qualified and I guess this means im in the firing line so I fort I would speak up... i was speaking to someone the other day who also worked in childcare and she summed it up perfectly.. Over worked and under paid Working from min wage (no nvq) up to £15000 (level 3 nvq) 5 days a week 40 hours a day plus having to come in and do staff meeting/training etc after work hours or on are day off unpaid, we are rushed off are feet trying to complete every child's observation (must be done every week for ofsted) this is for every child and must have at least 1/2 observations on them per week) do planned activities writing down observations on child/children write planning and do links to eyfs fill in all the health and saftey forms (there are a lot of them) nappy changing outside play toilet checkes are just a few all done by the staff as well as keep a eye on the children play with the children, washing hands, Snack time and lunch time as well as potty training changing nappies getting coats on and off and most important making shore there safe... This is a daily ecourance at a nursery that staff have to go through, the stress and lack of support leaves you sometimes feeling very helpless and alone especially when you may get a troubled child(s) to deal with/biting/kicking/punching and tantrums I did how ever forgot to mention if a child is ill one staff has to deal with that child leaving all the other staff to look after there children this also happends when a child has a accident or didn't quite get to the toilet on time, I'm afraid to say I don't think very much will change accept the nurserys will take full advantage of the changes by cramming more children into the nurserys but not lowering any fees I also don't think the wage of a nursery worker will increase leaving the nurserys to make fat profits that will go in the back pockets of the higher up.. this leaves myself and a lot of other workers angery as we do all the hard work and get little or nothing in return, Did you know each childcare course placement per person costs just over £1000 I was going to do one before I found out i was pregnant with my son (they had told me they didnt have the funds to do this)but now back from maternity leave and a year later work still refuse to give me any training what so ever... I don't understand how people who won't to go to childcare could afford it as it costs so much to train and having to do 2 set courses (nvq level 2 and nvq level 3) that's over £2000 before you even get into work and even then your paid such a low wage... But i guess its now focusing on getting people who are middle class who have the money to do these jobs leaving the lower class out of work My opinion is if they won't everyone to be level 3 or teacher with the maths and English then they need to pay a teachers wage and this would mean fees increasing, I do think though your get all the highly over qualified know it alls who dont care about the children in nursery and that they will push out the normal people who do care leaving childcare work only to be worthy of middle class workers and thouse who are up there own bums... I love my job and love the children I work with but if my work change to the new ratio I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for another job as I can't take much more and the strain and stress of childcare has token its toll on me as well as my family life.... I just hope in your hearts your see that childcare workers love your children very much and only won't the best for them we work very hard to keep to standards and routines and care and have allways put saftey first I just hope one day childcare workers will be treated as equal and care and saftey will become of high standed agen... Thank you for reading