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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Yet another religion in schools thread. Sorry.

23 replies

NeverQuiteSure · 23/01/2013 12:54

I know we get quite a few of these, sorry, but this time it's different because it's my DC. I am full prepared to be told I am BU

My DS attends the wonderful nursery class at our village (non-faith state-run) school. Every day just before parents come to collect the children they all have a story then close their eyes, put their hands together and recite a prayer. The prayer is now the day is over, and night is drawing in, Father keep us safe from harm until the morning's here, amen So aside from the fact it's a strange choice for 11:50 in the morning, it's very much 'religion-lite'

I have already discussed religion with DS and he knows that many people in this country believe in a Christian God, and a little about what that belief includes (story of Christmas, heaven, etc) However I still can't help feeling a bit about this.

AIBU to think that this shouldn't be part of the daily nursery routine? Or at least that parents should have been asked (I only know because my DS likes to recite it at home)

OP posts:

SuzysZoo · 23/01/2013 13:33

This is a tricky one. I am not religious and my children go to non-religious schools but still a lot of it creeps in. Better to start young. If they twig on that it's religious, you can explain that some people believe this......... They might just think it's an odd poem at that age. I was very annoyed when I sat in on my 6 year old daughter's Christmas decorations morning. They hauled in someone from the school office (not a usual teacher) and she intended to make Christingles with them. She started off by saying "now children, we are all Christians who believe in Jesus, so I am going to show you how to make a Christingle". I was stunned, especially as it was obvious that they were not all Christians, a couple of muslim kids in there (Mums in headscarvesd, who has also come to help!). I complained but I think the school just think I am an anti-religious nutter! I think that she should have explained that some people believe x and some people believe y and now we are going to stick dolly mixtures onto oranges!

NeedlesCuties · 23/01/2013 13:55

I'm a Christian, but curious to know what a 'Christingle' is.... Suzy can you explain.

OP, I think YANBU to be a bit about the prayer, maybe worth having a quiet word with the teacher.

adeucalione · 23/01/2013 13:58

I don't know whether it applies to nursery, but all state schools in England have to have a daily act of collective worship that is 'wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character'.

CheeseStrawWars · 23/01/2013 14:00

Christingle

WowOoo · 23/01/2013 14:01

It wouldn't bother me. I'm not religious but a little moment of reflection is a good thing I think.
That's the way I saw it in Ds nursery.
If it does bother you that much, I'd have a word.

CheeseStrawWars · 23/01/2013 14:01

Collective worship being "broadly Christian" is no longer endorsed by Government

JustAHolyFool · 23/01/2013 14:02

I am completely against religion in schools. However, I do also think that most intelligent people will be able to make up their own mind. I did all the prayers and songs and hoo-ha, including Sunday school, my whole school life, but I always took it with a massive pinch of salt.

MsVestibule · 23/01/2013 14:04

The verse does seem a little odd, given the time of day. However, I believe (but happy to stand corrected) that all schools in the UK have to have some form of communal worship every day. For some schools, that can be saying grace before lunch, but obviously that wouldn't work in a morning nursery situation.

I think you may have the right to remove them from this communal worship, but would it really be worth it? Unless you're completely anti-religion, I can't really see that saying one prayer a day will do any harm. Or am I completely missing the point?!

adeucalione · 23/01/2013 14:04

It is still being endorsed as current advice on the DofE website Cheese, although there would be no-one happier than me if it was no longer a requirement.

ReallyTired · 23/01/2013 14:06

I am not sure that I would want daughter saying that prayer. It almost suggests to the possiblity that harm can happen in the middle of the night.

My daughter learnt at her supposely secular day nursery.

"Thank you God for the world so sweet, Thank you God for the food we eat, Thank you God for the birds that sing, Thank you God for everything."

I think that low level christianity is a fact of life in British schools. Ironical Hindu and Muslim aren't particularly bothered.

FairPhyllis · 23/01/2013 14:07

What specific harm do you think this prayer does?

A Christingle is the Moravian Church's wacky contribution to ecumenism - lots of Anglican places have a Christingle service at Christmas.

catkind · 23/01/2013 14:11

Do you use the same nursery as us ReallyTired? We had the same. I complained and they said they would stop doing it when DS was there for lunch. Don't know if they really remember not to, but DS hasn't said it again since.

NeedlesCuties · 23/01/2013 14:11

Thanks, I now know what a Christingle is :)

ReallyTired · 23/01/2013 14:25

I don't mind my daughter saying that prayer. I think its nice for children to be greatful for the world around them. I wouldn't like the prayer that OP child is being made to say becuase it puts the suggestion of harm into the heads of small children.

Quite a lot of the pre schools around her use it. However the parents don't really have a leg to stand on as virtually all the pre schools are run by churches.

My children's community state school is very religious. Its far more religious than the average church school. Many of the prayers and hymns are generalised so that they are acceptable to those of all faiths.

DandyDan · 23/01/2013 15:07

State schools do not usually run the nurseries that are attached to them - these are usually private enterprises. State schooling begins with Reception/Foundation aged 4-5, so any religious input in a nursery is down to the people running it, not the responsibility of the state, and there is no obligation to do collective worship outside of the statutory years of education. If it is not a church-funded nursery, it is very much down to the individuals running the nursery, so maybe talk to the nursery staff.

I agree that the "thank you" prayer is much more accessible than a prayer to "keep from harm", and encourages thankfulness in daily life.

MyCannyBairn · 23/01/2013 15:20

I would be very unhappy about a daily prayer.

Original poster

NeverQuiteSure · 23/01/2013 17:46

Oops, didn't mean to go off and abandon this. RL got in the way.

DS's nursery is run by his school, it's not the norm where we live but not uncommon either. It's a full part of the school; they are in the main building, wear the uniform, headteacher takes the odd class, have parts in the school play and will join school assembly from Spring term. They are covered by the same board of governors and the PTA. They have one admission round in September and pretty much treat the nursery class as an 'extra' (although not compulsory of course) year group.

I didn't know that schools had to provide daily worship and I wonder whether the nursery class is voluntarily following this in order to fit in with the rest of the school. Which is fair enough really.

I can't really put a finger on exactly what makes me so uncomfortable about it. The image of him actively praying, eyes closed, hands together (and yes, I know you don't have to pray this way) bothers me the most. I'm always happy when he learns about religion because it's so important to many people and to our society and culture in general, but this seems different, this is him actually practising religion. It's being presented as fact, not as one possible fact out of a field of many (as it was when they learnt about Diwali and Hinduism last year)

I won't say anything to his teacher, I don't think it would achieve anything and I certainly don't want him feeling left out. It's just the system I suppose.

OP posts:

GalaxyDefender · 23/01/2013 19:12

To those saying state schools are required to have a daily act of worship, they haven't been for years. Either that or nobody actually bothers with it.
Ten years ago I was at a Church of England school and even we didn't have a daily anything My younger siblings went to school in a completely different part of the country, and they didn't do any worship either.

OP, I can see why it bothers you. Do have a word if it's being presented as fact, that's definitely not on, especially for such young children.

exoticfruits · 23/01/2013 19:20

They are required to have a daily act of worship and, as a supply teacher at many schools, I can tell you that they do! Maybe your DC doesn't recognise it for what it is. I would have thought that mine didn't have one if I hadn't taught at their school! There is very little difference between a faith school and a community school-there are no secular schools in the UK.

nefertarii · 23/01/2013 19:24

Schools are required to include daily acts of worship and include religion. Most do, but some will not do it.

why people are surprised when we live in a religious country, I don't know.

Original poster

NeverQuiteSure · 23/01/2013 19:27

I think I was surprised that the worship was Christian and the other religions included as 'something other people do'. Fair enough, we are a Christian country, but I didn't expect it.

OP posts:

LynetteScavo · 23/01/2013 19:27

It's a silly payer to say at 11.50am

Llareggub · 23/01/2013 19:30

My DCs started at a Catholic primary last week as all the local schools are full. They are now saying at least three prayers a day which came as quite a shock to them. I quite like it though; it has prompted quite a few conversations about religion, belief and diversity. I think anything that might prompt reflection and/or discussion is quite good thing. I'm not particularly religious but I don't foist that on my children. They can make their own minds up, although I suspect being educated in a Catholic school might give them bit of a nudge towards faith.

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