.....to think that these A'Level options clashes are ridiculous?

[EllieArroway]

My DS wants to do Maths, Physics, Chemistry and possibly Biology for his A'Levels - a fairly sensible group for anyone wanting to go into science, I would have thought.

But he can't because Physics clashes with Biology and Maths clashes with Chemistry.

There are other odd clashes too - English & History, Dance & Drama.

I know they can't please all the people all of the time but.......that's a bit strange, isn't it?

Maths clashing with chemistry is very

English clashing with history is very

If the OP's DS wants to study a normal physics degree then he needs Maths and Physics. Most universities do not specify a third or forth subject choice, although Further maths is appriciated/possibly required by some top Uni's. Even the top Uni's such as Imperial or Oxford do not ask for second or even third science subjects. Biology is irrelevant.

I would recommend that the OP looks at the actual entrance requirements listed on some of the universities websites.

I still think it is an odd thing of the school to do. Maths, physics and chemistry just go together and it seems harsh to be making DC's choose between them at such a young age.

OP , Just an idea, but does your DS's school offer computer science. It is very mathmatical and goes well with physics and maths.

Doodles Yes, IT is an option. And it would be a good one, I agree.

Much to discuss and for DS to think about. I do think Philosophy would be a great one to take & I will indeed encourage him to look at all of his options.

Thank you all.

Is Computer Science different from IT? Because they have the latter, not the former if that makes a difference.

What about Further maths? Very useful for a future Physisist. As you haven't mentioned it I am assuming the school isn't offering it?

I did Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry which is ridiculously common.

Either the computer program has gone dodgy or no one has talked to the kids about implications of A level choices.

Yes. Computer Science is completely different from IT. As different as Economics and Business Studies.

Offering Physics without Maths is raving.

That said, my school built the entire timetable using a computer around Y12 choices in five blocks. IIRC Maths was pretty much a block on its own for the sixty-something out of eighty in the year that chose Maths. Sounds like your school needs a better program, or DS needs to have a serious think about his future.

I would move DS not just because he can't do his choice of subjects, but if the school is prepared to organise timetables like this they are not interested in fully informing pupils about possible consequences of subject/university choice.

OP - chuck in maths stats A-level. Always a cheeky extra for those doing maths and further ;-)

Horatio Oh, he can do Physics and Maths, he just can't do either Biology or Chemistry if he selects them.

Further Maths is a possibility, yes. But I think he wants to do at least one of the others to try and keep his options open.

Does anyone know anything about "Extended Project Qualification"?

Quote:

The new Extended Project Qualification is a free-standing qualification which offers students a free project choice, so they can explore in depth:

• an aspect of a subject they are studying, or
• a topic in which they have a personal interest

It's the equivalent of half an A'Level and is a popular 4th/5th option.

Anyone have any experience of it?

These are crazy option blocks!

This needs to be flagged up to the head teacher now, with the alternative being withdrawal from the school. It is not too late to change the timetable as it will not be written yet, nor will it be around the needs of one student.

The three sciences and maths have to be in different blocks. Other groups of subjects will also need to be in different blocks, such as the modern foreign languages.

They have to construct the blocks based on typical university entry requirements. Most prospective medics with do three sciences and maths. engineering students will typically choose physics, chemistry and maths. Life science students will want biology, chemistry and maths. Anyone who wants to do languages will want two of them.

There is nothing wrong with using an options computer program but they need to lock in subject combinations first (ie subjects that cannot be in the same block) and then let the program shuffle the different combinations around, as well as all the "single subjects".

Ellie,

My DD will be doing the Extended Project when she joins sixth form next year.

I was really compelled by it at her Y11-to-sixth-form evening.

I think it is important for the school to have a good Extended Project tutor.

You are right that these subjects absolutely should not clash. They are a sensible combination for anyone interested in continuing with science at university (including med, vet etc). The maths/chem clash is particularly ludicrous. I assume the school has only a small sixth form or individual subjects would be offered in different timetable 'blocks' to allow alternative choices. If DC is set on staying at school I suggest putting your concerns in writing to: HT, Head of Sixth, Head of Science and maths (and heads of individual science subjects) perhaps referring to the Russell group document someone mentioned - and if this does not produce a satisfactory response write also to chair of govs and the LA/academy trust or other higher body. But I suggest also beginning now the process of persuading your DC to consider applying to institutions that do offer the subjects they want because A levels are too important to be chosen on the basis of what the school happens to find fits conveniently.
Ignore posters who think YABU and talk about you expecting the school to accommodate your DC choices at expense of others: A level decisions are just too important.

If the sixth form is not very academic then how many people will be going on to medicine/dentistry and vet science degrees, which people with 3 or 4 As and experience struggle to get on to? I know this seems very unfortunate for your son but if the demand for the combination was there then the courses would be run in a way that the options could be taken. Many sixth forms are stopping running science courses altogether due to lack of demand.

Bring it up with the school but know the chances of it changing are very, very slim. I would strongly advise your son to move elsewhere. He sounds motivated and passionate so will get into a good university where he will make a whole new world of friends.

I'm not sure how well received the extended project is where an applicant is applying for a core academic degree to a RG university - any offer is likely to be subject specific grades rather than a points tariff.

The fourth option could be something quite different eg MFL or a discursive subject which could be taken to AS then dropped for A2 or carried on if the interest and enthusiasm is still there.

I have sympathy for your DS's situation. My DD attended a fairly under-performing school to GCSE. She then moved to a different 6th form in a different town to get both her choice of A levels (not available as a combination in her previous school) and the type of academic support which her previous school was not capable of

change school

Extended Project sounds to me rather like General Studies ie maybe usable if you are applying to a lower tier university but if you are applying to Russell Group just a bit of a joke that adds an extra line to your list of qualifications.

Computer science is basically maths, mostly it's logarithms
whatever they are

Computer science is nothing to do with IT. It is often part of maths or engineering departments in Universities.

If the OP ds is planning to do a physics degree then chemistry A-level is far more useful than computer science. A-level chemistry will help with solid state physics, cystallography that are often options in a physics degree course. A-level Biology would be useful if the OP son is interested in a career in medical physics.

I think he needs to move school.

Find a college, DS1 had to take a train thirty miles every day to collage as the school he had been at was less than meeting his needs,

Despite all of us having reservations, it was the best thing we ever did, the journey each day worked well for him a sort of transition space , being somewhere new where he was treated as an adult turned out to more than make up for leaving his friends, they still all saw each other, he made lots of new ones, the friends that stayed on that school for six form got really fed up as the staff still viewed them as children,

He came out with exceptionally good marks, couldn't of got any higher, and he got to do the subjects that he wanted, much higher standard of teaching.

I also think that it helped him enormously when he went to university, as the college teaching and structure had better prepared him.

ReallyTired. I dont think anybody has said computer science was more useful than chemistry I certainly didn't.

However, if you look at the entry requirements for physics at top/good UK Universities they do not specify that chemistry is desirable. What they require is maths and physics (and sometimes further maths).

Chemistry is obviously useful to lots of physicists (as is computer science)

What nonsense - Extended Project is nothing like General Studies.

Ridiculous option boxes, but I would say it's highly unlikely the school will change them- timetabling is ludicrously complicated and IME, the person (or computer) doing it loses sight of the human element completely. Having said that, I would imagine the school will be aware that the option choices mean they will potentially lose students and will have come to terms with it. I am Head of a v small 6th form in a tiny rural secondary- what we can offer a at 6th form depends very much on staffing (for example, our small (4 teachers) Science dept doesn't have a degree level physicist, so we've never offered A Level Physics) and results- we offer a smallish number of subjects which generally suit our students (mix of AS and BTEC subjects - we're in a grammar area so we have middle-low ability kids) and generally do well. In Sept 2013 we won't be offering Chemistry because it's not popular enough- we already know that this means we will lose students- the one or two who want to do Chemistry and/or Physics will have to go elsewhere. On the flip side, we may well get kids from other schools coming to us to do BTEC Performing Arts as we have a good reputation for it. OP, whilst I sympathise, and agree that if, as you say, we're talking about a medium sized- large secondary, these option blocks seem illogical, I doubt you'll get the school to change them- I would advise helping your DS to look elsewhere.

Oh, and Extended Project is widely accepted.

I have to declare an interest here as I wrote part of the support materials for doing extended projects in the ethics of science.

Having said that I am also a moral philosopher, so I would not lie to you! If your DS likes independent study then this could be a really interesting take on a mainstream subject that would give him something special to talk about in his Medical School interview (for example, should he chose to go down that route - I have also taught in a Medical School for years and with so many top students being interviewed, the best ones need something to make them stand out).

The Extended Project materials I worked on were developed by philosophers with the aim of encouraging the kinds of independent thinking and critical skills that are crucial not just for University but any job that requires you to think for yourself. It is much better than the outdated and historically confined A level Philosophy.

The materials I worked on were originally tried out by students at the Rugby school and believe me they were very bright and destined straight for top universities.

There is some overall info on these particular support materials here:
www.edexcel.com/quals/project/Documents/Project%20-%20Perspectives%20on%20Science%20Model.ppt#20

EPQ is very well regarded, we have had several students with oxbridge offers that have hinged on a good EPQ. We have a large and excellent sixth form, i cannot comprehend a sixth form that does not offer chem and phys. We offer chemistry and biology in each of the five option blocks, and physics in 4 out of 5. OP you probably need to look at destinations of leavers, we send some to oxbridge, and plenty to med school/dentistry/russell group as a state comp. You probably need to move schools, hard though that may be.
Evil, wildly off topic, but a science dept of 4!, we have 20 teaching staff in my faculty.

Loshad - that would mean five teachers for every teaching group in my school! Only 550 kids in total- 6th form of 80ish. All three core depts are 4 teachers.

DD1 was the only student in her year (of approx 150) doing Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry which I was about, as I'd've thought that was a standard combination. She did originally want to do a language at AS, but that clashed too much with FM, even despite the offer of twilight lessons, and rejigging the course to only cover new stuff in the class lessons she was there. A good sixth form should be looking at how to work round the "anomalies" if they have the staffing.

DD also did the EPQ which counted for nothing in her uni offers, but did help a bit in writing her personal statement, as she carefully picked a topic which tied in with some out of school subject specific snazzy stuff she'd done, and made the first paragraph of her PS pretty stand out (i.e. she was the only person in the country in her year group who had done/studied both things, applying for her subject). Although I know anecdotally that the PS is almost irrelevant for her subject, it didn't harm her application.

OP, think about what the end result of the A levels is going to be, and work backwards from that. EPQ is a nice extra, and a potential talking point for uni interview, but A level grades are what is going to get you where you want to go. So if the school isn't going to work with you, then look elsewhere. Sixth form is a good time to make a move in any case, as lots of DC have "outgrown" existing friendship groups, particularly if they've been together since primary.