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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Please tell me IABU (newborn being held by smokers)

51 replies

honeytea · 23/12/2012 03:14

I hope IABU.

My PFB was born on tuesday and he is just perfect and adorable (biased mummy.)

I am just overwhelmed by the feelings I have for him, I had anticipated that maybe I wouldn't have strong feeings for the baby right away but I hadn't mentally prepared for the fear I get about many things because my feelings for the baby are so strong.

I think I have had a couple of days of baby blues because I have been feeling so so worried about him. My MIL and SIL both smoke and I am so very worried about them holding the baby, when they hold him I feel like grabbing him and running away :( I will him to cry so I can feed him.

They both smoke outside wearing a jacket(that they then take off inside), they don't smoke in the house.

I am trying to be logical about things, I have been telling myself most people with a baby have a couple of friends or family members who smoke and hold the baby and most babies are fine. My baby is so strong, he was 10 pounds and he is feeding well.

My logical reasoning just isn't working, I took off his clean clothes when we got home tonight and I insisted we give him a bath at 11pm to try to wash off the smoke. I couldn't even smell smoke on him but i felt I couldn't put him to bed with that danger. (Not that he would sleep anyway.)

My friend's baby boy died from SIDS last year and I just keep thinking the same thing will happen to my baby :(

Maybe I should ask them to wash their hands before they touch the baby, MIL is already anoyed with me because I had an "attitude" when they were visiting the day before yesterday, I really didn't mean to my DP woke me up to feed the baby I had only slept for an hour the night before and I was just quiet because I was so tired. I worry about causing more trouble.

I just want to hide away with my baby and try to keep him safe.

Please tell me IABU, I won't listen to my own reasoning I hope hearing it come from other people will help.

OP posts:
bbface · 23/12/2012 06:59

Duchess, your post makes for very interesting reading.

Trials, medical research, medical conclusions... Take a long long time to come to fruition. Indeed, in your second paragraph, you freely admit that there have been no clinical studies on the issue, and yet how can you be so positive on the matter? The issue of third hand smoke is in limbo, no doubt about it. Nothing is clear and very little proven, but the fact that there MIGHT be problem, is surely a compelling enough reason for this mother to want to protect her child from it?

Let's not forget that the tobacco houses in the fifties and sixties had scientists saying that there was no averse health risk to smoking, and that it was in fact good for you. That did not happen generations ago, just a few generations ago. Of course I do not think that this is what the tobacco houses are doing now! But my point is that science can be a slow moving beast when it comes to reaching unanimous clear conclusions. The effect of third hand smoke is now where near reaching this point, and until such time as it is.... I will sure as hell be protecting my second DC (due Feb) from second hand smoke.

But you know what? Me protecting my child will require minimal effort on my part. Because my sister gave up smoking before my first was born, simply on account that I was having a new born. And my brother will happily follow whatever I ask of him when it comes to my brother. This is how a loving and respectful family behaves OP, whereas your other sounds difficult to say the least. Be strong xxx

surroundedbyblondes · 23/12/2012 07:07

Congratulations honeytea! I'm so pleased for you. Just to get some perspective, this is not a swedish vs uk thing. They don't see the problem because they are smokers and don't realise how the smell gets everywhere and makes non-smokers feel sick. You are right to want to protect your little guy from this and you should. You set the agenda at this stage. They need to fit around you. I think from what you have described of them previously, they are very selfish and enjoy putting you down. Your DP needs to stand up for you, you have just had a baby ffs and the little unit that is you, him and DS need to come first. Best he shows that right from the start.

maddening · 23/12/2012 08:40

You do need to be more assertive - if they started with the routine crap with me then would likely have gone along lines of - well I want to feed him, my baby - my rules. Don't hint - get yourself ready, go over and pick up the baby and suggest a cup of tea is in order.

If someone stops you from picking up your baby then I would see that as a problem - if it was the in-laws then dh should be speaking to them.

They already have a good smoking routine - outside and extra coats but they could add washing and waiting 20mins easily.

DuchessofHaphazard · 23/12/2012 09:36

bbface Sorry to pick you out but I have to point a few things out.

"Trials, medical research, medical conclusions... Take a long long time to come to fruition. Indeed, in your second paragraph, you freely admit that there have been no clinical studies on the issue, and yet how can you be so positive on the matter? The issue of third hand smoke is in limbo, no doubt about it. Nothing is clear and very little proven, but the fact that there MIGHT be problem, is surely a compelling enough reason for this mother to want to protect her child from it? "

Sorry, but perhaps I've not been clear. The issue of third hand smoke is not in limbo, for the scares to be true a number of fundamental scientific laws would have to be false.

When I said that there have been no clinical studies on the issue, this was perhaps misleading. The effects of third hand smoke have not been adequately tested. This is because the levels of possible pollutants are in general so low that they cannot be picked up, as I say in my 7th paragraph.

There have been a couple of studies, which the authors of the original article refer to. One, in 2004, looked at the levels of nicotine found in air and surfaces in the homes of 17 smokers compared to 17 non-smokers. They found that in the non-smokers homes, there was an average of 0.1 nanograms of nicotine per square metre, whereas in the smokers homes, there was an average of 0.32 nanograms/m2. To put that into perspective, a nanogram is a billionth of a gram. Studies on second hand smoke (an issue which, as per my post above, genuinely is still in limbo) looking at pubs etc before the smoking ban show nicotine levels of up to 814 nanograms over an eight hour shift.

So wow, three times as much, that must be harmful, right? Well, no. Only half of the surfaces in the living room and bedrooms, and a third of the dust samples in the smokers houses (where the smoker claimed not to smoke inside), where even above detectable levels. And they don't know why there was nicotine in the non-smokers houses.

It's a fairly fundamental law of toxicology that "the dose makes the poison". There are a number of highly toxic chemicals that we ingest every day, but in insufficient quantities to do any harm. Hell, just about anything, even water is harmful if taken in sufficient quantities.

Take one of the chemicals referred to in the original article, polonium-210. This is highly radioactive, and also a nasty carcinogen. So traces of it left by cigarette smoke must be harmful, right? Again, no. We naturally ingest about 1-10 picocuries a day. Most leaves our bodies naturally, and the remainder decreases with a half-life of about 50 days.

A fatal dose of polonium-210 is 5 millicuries. It would take one quadrillion days (2.74 trillion years) for that child to absorb 5 millicuries. Unfortunately the universe is only 10 billion years old, so the child would have to lick floors for 274 cycles of our expanding universe. Of course since he'd normally excrete most of that polonium we'd have to refuse to change his diaper until the end of that period... not a very pleasant thought. And then there's that whole annoying fact that polonium's half-life is only 138 days, so we'd just have to ignore the laws of physics as well in order to justify the story's thesis?

The baby would have to lick carpet for thousands and thousands of years to pick up enough of the 'more concentrated' residual carcinogens.

The original paper quoted one study looking at the effects of exposure to low levels of tobacco smoke, which reported an association between parental smoking and lower levels of reading ability. However, the study was not controlled for among other things, socio-economic status, household income, higher birthweight, education levels of parents etc. Nicotine metabolites were inversely proportional to all these things. i.e.children who started out healthier and were more likely to have had educational opportunities, had slightly better reading scores, regardless of parental smoking status.

As parents, we judge risks all the time, whether to let our child ride their bike, climb a climbing frame, walk along a pavement next to a road. There is no detectable risk in third hand smoke beyond what was suggested by a group funded by the worlds biggest producer of smoking cessation products, and a survey on what people thought of the issue.

Because my sister gave up smoking before my first was born, simply on account that I was having a new born. And my brother will happily follow whatever I ask of him when it comes to my brother. This is how a loving and respectful family behaves OP,

My family did not all give up smoking when I was pregnant, and this is nothing to do with them not being loving and respectful, and actually I find it vaguely offensive that you would think they are. It is to do with them and me being able to actually read the research and judge the relevant risks.

OP, congratulations on your newborn, and enjoy these days because they are wonderful (if sleep-deprived!). If you don't want your ILs to smoke even outside, then tell them. If you want them to wash their hands after they smoke, then tell them. If you don't want them to smoke at all, then tell them. But do so with the correct facts at your disposal, rather than the results of a biased study and picking up on media hysteria.

ILiveInAPineappleCoveredInSnow · 23/12/2012 09:41

YANBU, not because of any scientific evidence to say that it will cause harm, but because I wouldn't like to have my face shoved next to a jumper smelling of smoke, so there is no way I would allow my baby's face to be, especially since he/she can do nothing about it!

JenaiMathis · 23/12/2012 09:52

I remember feeling exactly the same, about this and other things. It's natural, but it's an irrational (or at least hugely exaggerated) fear of something being Bad For The Baby. So YABU, but it will pass hopefully.

otoh your MIL and SIL aren't being terribly empathetic.

swallowedAfly · 23/12/2012 09:55

duchesse thank you! that was interesting reading - actual facts rather than propaganda.

in terms of relative risk i'm entirely confident that there is more harm in being pushed down a road with cars driving down it than there is from coming into contact with the jumper of a smoker.

FirstTimeForEverything · 23/12/2012 09:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

priscilla101 · 23/12/2012 10:13

Good point well made pineapple!

JenaiMathis · 23/12/2012 10:19

bbface, how is anti-bacterial hand cleaner meant to help combat the dangers of 3rd hand smoke?

bbface · 23/12/2012 10:25

Jenai, you would a cigarette with your fingers. Posters were suggesting washing hands tongetnrid of toxins. I suggested antibacterial lotions as an options.

Duchess, in no way was my comment about mynsiblings directed at you or meant to cause offence. I just wanted the poster to see that her mother is behaving not as loving relatives would I.e. it wasn't an issue for you, so your faily are not being disrespectful by not giving up smoking or refraing when visiting your baby.

As for your last post, a lot of cutting and paste went on I believe. I began to do the same, of all the info from some pretty compelling cancer organisations, and then I thought... What am I doing this for? Tis Christmas and I have am stack of stuff to do and the fact is the OP is concerned about this issue and wanted guidance. As I say, until the NHS (my point of reference) releases a statement that third hand smoke is not an issue, then I will continue to be careful.

everlong · 23/12/2012 10:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amytheflag · 23/12/2012 10:39

YANBU. We don't let any smokers in our family hold LO if they have been smoking (we are lucky that there is only one smoker now though). It's not just the toxins worry for us though. I wouldn't want to be held by someone who smelled of smoke or breathed that stench over me (even with a mint they still stink) so I don't see why LO should have to put up with it either.

Startail · 23/12/2012 10:49

Congratulations,
I don't think YABU, but having been brought up by a chain smoking DDad I think compromising may be necessary.

My DDs are much older, the total paranoia about smokers holding babies is new.

However, I don't think I could have fallen out with my DDad by insisting on following that advice.

I think you need to take a deep breath and find something that works for your family.

Here the unthinkable happened DDad stopped smoking because he wanted to see his GC grow upGrinGrinGrin

rocamadour · 23/12/2012 10:57

Second hand smoke is unpleasant and an irritant but I'd be REALLY hacked off at op's DP waking her up 3 days after giving burth after she's had an hours sleep the night before, and at the mil for complaining about 'attitude'. Those are the bigger issues IMO.

CatsRule · 23/12/2012 11:01

Yanbu!

I felt and still feel the same way as you do about protecting my ds from smoke and the people who clearly don't care enough not to put him at risk.

My cousin's baby died of sids at around 10 months old and although it was over 20 years ago I still think about it a lot. The overwhelming love you do have for your baby makes you want to do anything to prevent something so horrendous!

Oh and you have an attitude!!! Wtf!!! Back away mil...it amazes me that the mums and mils have been there but still insist on being utter bitches...well not all (my wee mum has been great by letting us be mum and dad while she cooked and cleaned for us) but many chose to!

HoHoHokeyCokeyPigInAPokey · 23/12/2012 11:03

YANBU

CatsRule · 23/12/2012 11:10

Also...start as you mean to go on with people too...this is your baby, which they can have the priviledge of enjoying too but on your terms, espeically when so young.

My mil insists on putting her filthy smokey fingers in ds's mouth and to not cause a rift I usually try and distract him or change his nappy etc in the hope she will wash her hands! She never does! She also insists on giving him innappropriate things to play with like pens stuck in his mouth and pen mark.all over his face. Just an example of how some people are just irresponsible and thoughtless.

It's your job to protect your tiny baby against all that.

Congratulations and enjoy every minute Smile

JenaiMathis · 23/12/2012 11:25

If I'd gone on the way I started (as in the way I was when ds was a few days old) he'd be living in a fortress and never leaving home without an armed guard.

I honestly wouldn't formulate policy on the way you feel right now OP. Really, don't.

lottiegarbanzo · 23/12/2012 12:08

I think a big part of your problem is that your in-laws' behaviour and your desire to keep the peace must be leaving you feeling you lack control and inability to set boundaries.

The boundaries you wish to set just now may or may not be the ones you stick with but the essential thing is you feel you have freedom to explore your feelings and decide in a peaceful, unrushed way, how you want to do things.

To achieve that, other people need to back off, give you space and put their personal wishes behind allowing you to work out what's best for your baby. Your DP needs to act as your gatekeeper, defending your space.

JenaiMathis · 23/12/2012 12:16

Well said, lottie Xmas Smile

foreverondiet · 23/12/2012 12:26

YANBU. I wouldn't like it either. But don't fall out with family if possible and it does get easier to get less anxious.

threesocksfullofchocs · 23/12/2012 12:26

yanbu
I am a smoker. and that is my choice.
if that means I don't get to cuddle babies I have to suck that up.
I would always go with want the parents want.

honeytea · 26/12/2012 07:51

My dp spoke to his dm saying we would prefer it if all smokers could wait 30 mins and wash their hands before holding the baby. She was really offended and is not pleased at all with me.

It has been a bit strained I have been feeling sensitive about comments like "oh my god! Watch his neck/head" and temperature comments no matter what I dress the baby in "why does he have no socks in? Why does he have a hat on?"

The baby wouldn't sleep at night time at all, he'd sleep for hours in the evening whilst being cuddled so me and dp decided yo try and wake him every 2 hours in the evening so he wasn't starving by the time we go to bed (waking him is easy you just put him down on a blanket and he opens his eyes he doesn't cry). Mil and sils said to me I should be following the baby's routine and it wasn't fair to get him to fit in with me, they literally wouldn't give him to me on Christmas day, I eventually said well if you don't give him to me we have to leave right now as I need to sleep when he sleeps.

I have slept better the last 2 nights and things are getting better I feel more confident in our decision to try to keep him away from 2nd hand smoke. I feel sad for dp and mil I wish there were no issues now :(

OP posts:
Inertia · 26/12/2012 08:47

Ok lovely, you need DP onside and you need to start calling the shots here. Your baby, you are feeding him - you decide when he feeds and sleeps, according to his needs. Your MIL and SIL are not in charge of your baby and they are not in charge of you. WTF is this business with refusing to give the baby back ?

Re the smokers - they should be changing /removing their outer layer of clothing, washing their hands, and waiting 20 minutes before holding a newborn. Why can't they wait until after they have held him to smoke ?

You don't have an attitude problem. Your MiL, on the other hand ...