to think that pre-school childcare is not valued?

[rainrainandmorerain]

Actually, I really mean 'looking after small children', whoever is doing it.

I used to hear this attitude from some men a lot at work - now I realise I'm hearing it from women too.

A few friends who work full time talk in very dismissive terms about what their nursery and childminders do - just changing nappies, wiping noses, singing a few songs, big deal etc. I think this is tied into a resentment about how much they have to pay for childcare, and I have a LOT of sympathy with that (have part time childcare myself), but I also think it has a lot to do with them simply not valuing the job of looking after their children.

More controversially, I have heard it from some working mothers about sahms. A kind of 'it's hardly rocket science, is it' attitude.

(Before I'm accused of having a wohp/sahm agenda - I am self employed (nothing to do with childcare!), main breadwinner, have one dc and share parenting with dp, along with some part time nannying, prob about 10 hours a week.)

I come from a background where family members have been involved in social work and child development, so I suppose I have always had some awareness of the developmental needs of small children and what happens when that care goes wrong.

So things like emotional development, building relationships, language and communication, social behaviour and self expression, along with the definable pre-literacy/numeracy skills are all part of the care of small children (and the big ones). And I think that's a HUGELY important job, whoever is doing it. I hear it dismissed as 'just playing' - which is when I think parents get angry about paying for it.

If we don't value that, why not? Is it because raising children has traditionally been seen as 'women's work' and therefore not important? Do other women buy into that attitude? Or does it date back to ideas about small children not being 'proper' people? (Victorians were big on this....)

That's interesting, I've noticed the complete opposite recently. Friends are gushing about how wonderful their DC's nursery is, women I work with are pathetically grateful to their nurseries for slotting the DCs in for extra days so they can do Christmas shopping in peace, etc.

I have noticed the attitude you describe, sadly. It's just more recently people around me have been more positive about childcare and looking after small folk in general.

I agree that the quality of care in the early years is hugely important, whoever is doing it. Unfortunately, many childcare workers are poorly paid and poorly qualified, and this tends to devalue people's perceptions of the role. In reaction to this, some SAHMs attempt to regain some of that value by making silly assertions about it being "the hardest job in the world", and I think that's what leads to the comments about it not being rocket science. It isn't rocket science, but done properly, it certainly isn't a walk in the park either.

Also, for many people who were parented well themselves, certain skills and behaviours may seem like second nature and so they are not really recognised as anything special. For example, I used to talk constantly to my dd as a baby, and never thought twice about it until a friend commented on it and linked it to her advanced language skills. Many of us parent instinctively, and we probably have numerous parenting skills that we don't really recognise as such, because we didn't go out of our way to acquire them.

Sorry, just thinking out loud really. Might not make much sense!

Hi I was a cm for 3 years but gave up in feb.

I absolutely loved it, the parents were ( with one exception who I got rid of as she messed me around re payments) bloody lovely.

Children fantastic and as I worked full time with 4 every day 8 till 6 if was a very good well paid business.

I always felt valued but worked bloody hard to provide a great atmosphere for the mindees.

I had to give up and now earn a fraction of what I did as a TA.

It's a great business.

Personally think that pre-school care is of critical importance, you're basically paying another woman to kiss & care for your baby / toddler.

The relationship with child's keyworker determines success in weaning, mobility, talking, behaviour - to really look after & care for your baby you have to as working mum realise that baby may spend more time with them than you. It's unbelievably hard when nursery says 'DS loves / hates this', but often true.

As an early years practitioner, (stupid fecking name) I've often been told, "your job is easy, all you do is play with the kids!"

My job is different every day but it's a physical job and sometimes mentally draining job (especially if you have heavy going stuff going on with a key child meaning lots of long meetings with upsetting content). Other moments have you in stitches and enjoying little conversations about the randomness of things. I love my vocation and don't for one minute regret the fact I upset my mum by turning down a fantastic opportunity in insurance to become a nursery nurse.

I heard all sorts of bizarre comments when I was working in the City - from super intelligent people among them were:

• your child cant remember anything until about 4 so its all irrelevant anyway

• its better the child is raised by a professional childcarer they are a professional at it so will do a better job having a parent around isnt important

• a baby/young child crying when being left at a nursery is doing it simply to "blackmail" the parent and make them feel bad (from parents of under ones)

• hes better off in a nursery he will learn to socialise and is learning French (child was one)

I worked in an extreme environment though - if you went back to work you needed 2 nannies one for day one for evening or nursery and nanny to do the pick ups as the hours were long so I mixed with a self selecting group who had certain priorities. Funnily enough dont work there anymore

Meant to add, I had huge respect for the lovely woman who looked after my dd when she was younger. She had a fantastic skill set that truly complemented my own, and she gave my dd an awful lot that I couldn't have given her. She certainly did much more than changing nappies, feeding and other basic care. Dd was very attached to her, and we still meet up with her regularly despite now living several hundred miles away.

Having said that, I think there are childcare settings where the carer does little more than feeding, changing etc. Not all settings are created equal!!

I have the upmost respect for what they do because i would rather suffer a fate worse than death than be surrounded by children all day.

I think there's often more appreciation for how many hours a nursery or cm will look after a child than what they do with them when they are there, iyswim.

Obvs that is related to working parents need to be child-free for work/travel hours. So yes, maybe when time gets even more pressured around xmas etc, people are more grateful in that way.

Totally agree with you Jinsei about some parenting skills being more 'natural' to some parents than others, but then we can get a bit 'blind' to the fact they are still skills.

I live in an area where there has been a big push on pre-school provision/education in recent years, and a lot of talk about learning through play etc. A lot of this is because so many children are arriving at school with so few skills in terms of socialisation/behaviour, let alone any pre-literacy etc, that it is making teachers' (and other childrens') lives very hard. And is a difficult problem to address at that stage.

puds - yes, to be fair, I have heard mothers using childcare saying they couldn't do it, it would drive them round the bend etc, and I think that does at least show they value it!

I think I would find working with small children, or older ones too, very hard. I don't think I could do it. I don't have much patience/tolerance and really struggle if I don't get some time on my own (which I get in work).

I work full time and a childminder looks after my DS's.

I admire her soooo much, I would never be able to do it and would say she definitely has a tougher job than me! Never heard anyone belittling childminders.

A lot of parents seem to bypass entirely (forget? or are just unaware?) the fact that the first three years of life give (or don't give) children a cultural grounding in terms of language, values and behaviours that will stay with them for life. Outsource your young children at your peril

Let me rephrase that, I am obviously able to look after my own DS's but would not be able to look after someone else's along with my own all day five days a week.

Kerala - I don't work anywhere near the city but I've heard the 'they don't remember anything til they are older' line - which really does sound Victorian to me.

My sister, who lived in Spain when her children were small, was shocked to hear Spanish parents saying that it didn't matter if their children's childcarers didn't have a language in common with the family "as the children cannot talk anyway."

I've not come across this attitude, whether towards professional child carers or parents doing the child care, but maybe I've just been lucky. I certainly don't undervalue them - DD went to an amazing nursery from 5 months until she was almost starting school and the staff there were all exceptionally hardworking. Yes they played, but they watched, planned, helped the children grow and develop. Much of DD's nature and ability is down to them. When DS came along we switched to a nanny and she is equally wonderful, thinking about their development and helping them grow the whole time.

Where I do think childcare professionals do have it easier is that they are focussed on the childcare completely. The rest of the running of the house is not their responsibility. Doing the running of the home and the childcare is a bigger task IMO (I appreciate that childminders do both and nannies and other childcare professionals have their own homes to run) and having to do both is one of the reasons I chose to go back to work!

Bonsoir - well, I think lots of parents outsource childcare to some degree because financially they have no choice, or because they are making the choice that spending x years out of the workforce isn't what they want to do.

I know both types of working parents - the ones who are forced to do it and would rather not, and others (I'm probably more in this category, although also we could not live on dp's income at present) who get a huge satisfaction and fulfillment from work. I do find it a big part of my identity. (mustn't forget how abysmally exhausting and miserable I found working when ds was a small baby, and we had no childcare though....)

I think it is outsourcing childcare when the parents seem to have so little respect or understanding of what is involved in their child's development that bothers me. If my young dc were spending 5 days a week, 8-6 with someone else in loco parentis, i think I would be aware, and WANT to be aware, of how much their carer was doing to shape their emotional, physical, social and intellectual development.

My DC's nursery staff are all geniuses with the patience of saints! And I have told them that many times.

bonsoir, I don't think there is any danger in "outsourcing" some of the childcare, it all depends on the quality of care that can be provided. Some parents may not have great parenting skills, and the kids might really benefit from a few hours in good quality care. On the other side of the coin, some childcare "professionals" aren't up to much, and parents would be better off doing it themselves. I feelthat we were fortunate to find a good balance for our dd - the nanny brought a different set of skills and strengths from me and DH, and dd had the benefit of all of them.

I think the problem arises when people assume that anyone can do it equally well. That obviously isn't the case!

bluey - yes, looking after children AND doing most of the running of a household day to day is very different from being able to focus almost entirely on childcare.

On days when I have ds fulltime and have activities planned, can do trips etc and just enjoy hanging out, it is sooooooo much easier than days where there is a heap of domestic stuff to sort out too.

I assume those who say "it's not rocket science is it" are infact working as rocket scientists? What a stupid thing to say.

Personally I really value my son's pre-school and even if I didn't work I would send him. They prepare the children for starting school, help them build the stamina they will need to face a full school day and get them used to concentrating and listening to instructions. Apart from all that I think the children really enjoy it and gain valuable confidence which puts them in good stead for P1.

I work, so both my children have started some type of nursery care from 16 months. My younger child's nursery is excellent too. I value the staff hugely as of course I should given I leave my child in their care.

Please don't let this thread turn into a bum fight around sahm and those who work outside the home.

I was a fantastic cm ( was told many times) and loved it..

What's not to like planning a picnic on a summer day. Going to the shop with the children, getting them to help prepare the food.

Walking to the park Chatting and learning, playing poo sticks, cuddling and listening, textin pics to parents, getting home for a short nap( children not me) grabbing time to do paperwork, obs etc...

Wish still could do it.

Bun fight NOT bum!!!!

I value it. It's of critical importance.

Just because I don't feel looking after your own children is your "job" does not mean I don't think it's hard work and incredibly valuable whether done by a mother or a childcare provider.