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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think that teachers whinge too much???

109 replies

hoobledoo · 07/12/2012 15:15

Not much to this post, just that if you feel that being a teacher is such hard work and so unrewarding and how the children and their parents are so awful to them, then stop moaning and don't be a teacher!!!!

OP posts:
Ormiriathomimus · 07/12/2012 15:54

Oh my lordy! Come and spend some time in the warehouse at the company I work for and hear some realwhingeing! Never f*cking stops. Now H teaches and is having a really bad time atm - he never whinges (mind you he has a face like a smacked arse and is really grumpy)

Tincletoes · 07/12/2012 15:55

Larry - as the wife of a teacher I'd stress that the unions really don't depict the view of an"average" teacher! Most teachers I know would be totally in favour of performance related pay and getting rid of poor teachers. The problem with getting tid of poor teachers is that it takes forever - I work in the private sector and it would take a similar length of time there, however there is more flexibility to offer someone an incentive to go...

Concerns re performance related pay are how you create a robust and fair system I think. Will headteachers be given autonomy? Or will external parties be involved? And eg can the hard working teacher in the terribly deprived, poor results school get credit? Or will the latest education secretary after their sound bite of the week say that a teacher in a failing school can't be entitled to whatever premium a top performer gets?

larrygrylls · 07/12/2012 15:57

Sovery,

A combination of attainment relative to potential, attainment in the teacher's subject relative to how the same pupils did overall, lesson observation and pupil feedback, appropriately weighted with outliers taken out. Those are just some that pop into my head. Clearly it is not an exact science but, equally, it seems to me, most people in a school from the Head to the other teachers to the pupils, know the great teachers, the average ones and the terrible ones.

I think that arguing that the process is difficult, which I can totally see is not the same as arguing that it should not really be attempted.

Themumsnotroastingonanopenfire · 07/12/2012 15:57

Larry
I don't think you know very much about performance management for teachers. You seem to be assuming, as many people do, that teachers can do what they like and never get pulled up on it.
Teachers are observed by their line managers on a regular basis. These observed lessons are graded and used to inform the performance management review. All teaching staff have performance management targets that are carefully chosen and discussed with them and which they have to provide evidence that they have met. I had a long career in another profession before I retrained as a teacher and I can tell you that performance management in teaching is far more rigorous than I have encountered before. If this process is then used to determine a performance-related pay element then I don't have a particular problem with that.
Similarly, nobody, least of all good teachers, wants to see bad teachers remain in the system being carried by the rest of the staff.
It is, however, galling to be continually told by people who have no idea what teachers actually do that they are not doing it.

soverylucky · 07/12/2012 16:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DadOnIce · 07/12/2012 16:11

We can surely agree it's a tough job, harder than many but not as hard as some.

The big difference - and the main reason some teachers speak out to set the record straight - is that it seems to be the one job which everyone seems to have an opinion on, and which everyone thinks they know how to do better. Everyone's been to school, and everyone with a child has to deal with teachers - so they all think they're experts.

manicinsomniac · 07/12/2012 16:13

I don't agree with performance related pay because I think 'performance' is subjective.

However, I also don't really think we are serious professionals in the same way that some other careers are. Professional yes but not serious. Most of us in the school I'm in are failed actors or 'grown up' children.

DadOnIce · 07/12/2012 16:14

How will performance related pay for teachers be measured? Not by the kids' results, I hope. Because so many more factors influence those than the competence of the teacher.

LaQueen · 07/12/2012 16:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

manicinsomniac · 07/12/2012 16:39

^^
Yep, definitely agree with that. Mind you, I don't think it was all that widespread. I don't know a single teacher who went on strike and that's about 50 people (30 from my school where nobody went on strike and 20 other friends)

ravenAK · 07/12/2012 16:45

Stop wasting those biscuits on the teacher-bashers, people.

We need them in the staffroom to fuel our whingeing. Wink

44SoStartingOver · 07/12/2012 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Spinkle · 07/12/2012 17:30

Bah. Teaching is hard core. We have to maintain a calm veneer at all times. It's a long performance.

I think if you think it is so easy then have a go. And then decide.

I would point out that this week I have had chairs thrown at me, been sworn at as well as a shitful of prepubescent attitude merely for requesting some work from my class.

But I've got nothing to moan about Hmm

VioletStar · 07/12/2012 17:37

YABU. That is all as I have to go and whinge elsewhere now it seems. Humpf!

almapudden · 07/12/2012 17:41

Performance-related pay based on value added scores wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Performance-related pay based on exam results would be a disaster.

GinAndSlimlinePlease · 07/12/2012 17:43

Why shouldn't teachers moan?!

My dh took a substantial pay cut to be a teacher, his hours are longer, and he finds it more tiring. Most of the time he moans less than me about work.

But occasionally, he does moan. Like when the head talks to him like a child, or when a parent disagrees that their child needs to work on a behavioural issue.

Mainly, he just works 12 hour days and sunday afternoons for shit pay and an even worse pension, with just a tired grump left for me.

BoneyBackJefferson · 07/12/2012 17:46

So Hoobledoo you didn't like the responses on the other thread so you started this one.

LaQueen · 07/12/2012 17:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WeAreSix · 07/12/2012 17:52

YABVVVVU to start yet another teacher bashing thread.

Xmas Biscuit
manicinsomniac · 07/12/2012 17:59

Gin Unless your husband is a very new teacher he can't possibly be on crappy pay. Teachers get paid well! I'm on 32000 and I'm only an HOD . Pretty good deal if you ask me.

I don't think teachers do themselves any favours by either moaning or being defensive. We have a great job with great perks and are very lucky. We should embrace and be proud of that, not excuse it away with sob stories.

BeQuicksieorBeDead · 07/12/2012 18:03

Does anyone really want their children taught by 67 year old teachers?! That is why I am upset about the retirement age going up.

noblegiraffe · 07/12/2012 18:06

Performance related pay based on value added scores would be a bloody disaster in my subject, maths, which is setted from Y7.

Top set all have a target of A*. How are you supposed to get positive value added if they can't exceed their target and one kid has a bad day and goes down a grade?

Likewise, the bottom set is full of pupils who are underachieving due to behaviour or motivation issues that have followed them throughout school. Some of them don't attend half the lessons because they are are on college courses. Value added is always negative for our bottom set, regardless of who teaches them.

So which timetabler is going to risk their pay rise by giving themselves top or bottom set? Is it fair to penalise teachers because of setting decisions?

As an aside from that, if I have a kid who is overachieving, where is my incentive to move them up a set where they can do even better if I could keep them in my set, and their fat value added score for myself?

ravenAK · 07/12/2012 18:15

Indeed noblegiraffe.

I have one unscrupulous colleague who has a remarkable talent for managing the transfers of underachievers out of her GCSE set (& into mine, grrrr!).

Likewise, our HT always grabs the plum 'top of lower stream' set of grafters/those who should really be in higher stream, because, as he shamelessly tells his department, 'It doesn't look good for the Head to have a negative residual'!

VioletStar · 07/12/2012 18:26

I (with my hardworking kids) hit my a/a* target of more than 72% last year. But 2 students who decided they did not want to or need to work in my subject did not achieve a c grade, so I missed my a-c target. (One of the parents of said kids told me to stop insisting that the child should write in my lesson as I was stressing him out!). My students regularly exceed their targets by a grade. But I didn't pass my PM cos of these kids and their parents lack of support.
I'm watched at least 3 times a year and graded. A member if support staff once commented to me she knew of no other PROFESSION that is so scrutinised ( and she happens to have worked in private sector for years) That might give you a bit of a flavour of my world.

EvilTwins · 07/12/2012 18:35

I'm a teacher. DH is a management consultant. He moans WAY more than me about work.

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