To say we can’t afford to visit DF’s family at Christmas

[Ambivalence]

My DF ( fiancé) is pretty hopeless with money and so I have been nagging him for ages to prepare a list of his incomings/ outgoings so that we can prepare a joint budget. I have also been nagging him to check his finances before committing to things, rather than just spending the money and asking me to bail him out. He is not good at living within his means, which I realise is unlikely to ever change as he is 46!

He has now just texted me with the conclusion that we should not go to Holland for Christmas as it would be cheaper to stay at home ( he doesn?t get paid time off anyway).

I have texted back to say we will discuss it tonight. I feel really mean to agree with him, and let him spend Christmas without his family and friends but it would be a lesson to him about working out what you can afford before making plans ( we just went to Holland a week ago for his birthday ? he booked the wrong flights and so lost 2 days wages as a result, and spent £200 hosting a party in a bar for his friend).

I am a bit annoyed with him about money anyway as he has been in a low paid call centre (£9/ hour) job since he moved to London in the spring ? despite promising to look for something in his field and at a professional salary comparable to the job he left ( her hasn?t put much effort into this), and he is disorganised about giving me money towards the bills ( no rent as I pay the mortgage on my flat) and I have been asking him for months to set up a weekly standing order/ direct debit to me, as he is paid weekly and his budgeting skills are poor.

I feel really mean saying we can?t afford to go to see his family, but in the end I think this might be a lesson learned for him. He never saves anything for a rainy day. I have just had to spend my rainy day fund on some unexpected building work and so don?t have funds to bail him out. Should I agree with him we can?t afford the trip at Christmas or be kind and pay for it?

[Ambivalence]

and answering an earlier ppost - no, he hasn't sorted a pension - this is another point of "discussion" between us...

[Pandemoniaa]

He wants the prenup? Is that so that he can live rent free in your house with a clear conscience while you pay the mortgage alone?

This. Which is why I find your pre-nup sadder than it is sensible. It's easy for him to make grand but effectively meaningless gestures all the while he intends to settle down and live off your earnings for the foreseeable future.

[Ambivalence]

It is a one bed flat - I have made it clear to him that within 2 years we need to move to a family home, which he needs to put in half the deposit for ( bank of mum or his savings, either will do), and pay half the mortgage on it,
this flat will remain rented out as my pension/ sold to pay for our kids uni fees/ house deposits, as my parents did with me

[Cahoootz]

I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibilty for his own life.

If I had a magic wand I might be able to help but, after so many years, you are foolish (sorry) if you think he can or even wants to change.

You sound like a warm and lovely person, I am sorry that you have found yourself in this situation.

[Pandemoniaa]

As for advice, I think you sound like a very caring and generous person but actually, there's a limit to the extent you can change anyone and perhaps, rather than expect the impossible, you should consider looking elsewhere. Or, at the very least, you need to close down the personal banking services that your df has become so comfortably dependent upon. If this means life becomes less comfortable for him then tough. Nobody has the right to expect a life of complete financial irresponsibility and especially not on the assumption that everyone else exists to bale them out of trouble. What would he do if you lost your job or your income dropped drastically? Would he still be around?

[LineRunnerWithBellsOn]

Barge pole, OP.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibility for his own life.

I have been married twice. Listen to me carefully. Marry a man who is already to your taste. I married one to change him. Eight years later he was worse. I married my current DH who is hard-working, sweet, budgets, does house work and I love. He was before I married him, he was after and now we have a child he still is. Far easier. Would have called the lazy, feckless idiot man I married first my soul mate too. I was young and foolish.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

You have made it clear to him re future house/mortgage.

How?

What is the sanction if he doesn't comply and come up with the funds? Will you leave him?

[GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr]

"I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibilty for his own life."

Well, if you know him, and you dont know how he can do it, and he does not know how to do it, or even show any signs that he wants to, what do you really think any of us can say?

To be honest, this is something that any adult should have learnt by the time they were 20, or 22 to be generous. If no willingness or inclination is shown at 40 and beyond, I think any such "change" would be a total fluke.

It is all about learning to be responsible for oneself. Most of us start learning this from the age of 18, or when embarking on Uni or work.

[richardsimmonstanktop]

I do feel for you, OP. It's not easy to walk away BUT you need to get some self respect. Can't you see that you're being taken for a ride? He's in his late 40s, he's not going to change. Never, ever, ever.

I really don't get how anyone could live with themselves expecting their mum, their girlfriend and worst of all their girlfriend's mum to fund their lifestyle! My DP would rather die before that happened - and for the first few years we knew each other he was earning much less than £9/hour.

[Ambivalence]

the sanction if he doesn't comply - no, I probably wouldn't leave him, as he knows.

The same as I am now instigating, I guess - setting up a budget he has to comply with ( this is what we are doing in our next relate session), with standing orders for savings, and peer pressure from his friends/ family

[Ambivalence]

have decided I am going to email this thread to our relate counsellor and discuss with her whether to show it to him

[Cahoootz]

Has his drinking and smoking got better?

[Pantofino]

God I feel so sorry for you OP. You love this guy madly - he sees you as an open cheque book. He has NO respect for you. You DO realise that, don't you? If not - you need to - in short order. He IS TAKING THE PISS.

[expatinscotland]

Co-dependency is never a healthy thing in a relationship.

[drcrab]

Can you get him to transfer his salary payment stuff to your account? So you get the £300/week and then give him £100 to live on. Or get him to set up a DD from his account to yours every month. And watch him do it.

I'm only suggesting this because you seem hellbent on sticking with him. This will at least give you the control over the money. I am willing to bet that that's how your mum sorted your dad out. By taking control.

I still can't see how this will end in a good way. You've already said you are losing respect for him. Before marriage. Before kids. When the kids come and you are sleepless and poor and having to go to a job and get ready at 7am for a 12 hour day and dropping the kids off at nursery and paying over £1000/month for nursery... I doubt v much you'll still love him v much.

[Pantofino]

It is NOT NORMAL to need the service of Relate before you have even GOT married.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

OP - why is the counsellor so involved??

FFS you aren't even married yet, you should be head over heels and full of joint plans for the future - rather than you having to cajole him along into what you want from him.

Do you want this for the rest of your life?

You are the same age as me, and I feel like a mother trying to get through to a teenager.

[Pantofino]

You NEED to leave him and get some self esteem. You cannot live you life loving someone who does not love you back the same.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

Porto - exactly! It should not be this hard before the bloody wedding.

[Pantofino]

OP - this guy is a cocklodger. He has had ample opportunity to make something of himself - but has preferred to scrounge off you. He is now playing the guilt card - "I know i have fucked up and will sacrifice myself on the altar of not seeing my family" all the while whilst you are pricing up the fecking plane tickets.

[LineRunnerWithBellsOn]

You will need to make sure that your Relate counsellor knows what a cocklodger is.

[Chubfuddler]

Oh dear. He may be the "live of your life" now but if he carries on like this in five years you'll hate him. What's the point of that?

[Chubfuddler]

And as an aside, why do you think it's ok for him to use bank of mum to come up with his half of a deposit for a family home? He just leeches off women basically doesn't he? His mum, you, your mum.

[DowagersHump]

Your fiance treats you like you're worthless because you treat you like you're worthless :(

He thinks you are lucky to be with him because everything you do shows him that no matter what he does, you will still be there.

I don't think I've ever read such a sad thread. You're clearly an intelligent educated woman and you're being absolutely duped by this man. And your counsellor sounds bloody hopeless to be honest. Any counsellor who thinks a relationship is worth saving at the expense of one of the party's self-esteem doesn't deserve their certificate