to think America is not the greatest country in the world

[Phacelia]

I keep reading on blogs, in blog comments, on news pages, on fora, everywhere, about how America is the greatest country in the world. As in 'I can't believe this could happen here in America, we're supposed to be the greatest country in the world,' or 'I'm totally against this, we're the greatest country in the world.'

It utterly pisses me off.

I do think America is a great country. There are many fantastic, wonderful things about it and the times I've visited I've found a lot to like and met some wonderful people. But I think it is extraordinarily arrogant that so many Americans spout such nonsense online. I've never seen people of other nationalities write such garbage. I can't understand why I find it so inflammatory, except that I think it's ignorant (all countries have many great aspects to them, lots of people would hate to live in America, despite it's positive attributes, lots of people have died at the hands of Americans over the past 50 years, in terrible ways, and I wonder how their families/friends must feel reading stuff like that, plus I thought that America had gained some humility after 9/11 and realised that lots of people in fact dislike their government for very good reasons).

To be fair it usually seems to be right wing/Republican (often very religious) people who say it. (maybe I'm just more pissed that such people exist, with their homophobia, anti-abortion crap and religious fundamentalism which I think does such damage) I know lots of Americans wouldn't dare say something like that. But still, AIBU to think that it's unbelievably tacky and arrogant to write things like that online and that it isn't true? The latest version I've seen is on a blog about the UN disability rights treaty, which has been rejected with some commenters on blogs saying 'why does the greatest country in the world need other people telling us what to do? This treaty will lead to the government rounding up disabled people and exterminating them, blah, blah, blah.'

/end rant.

[CheerfulYank]

Actually it's the people who have a small to medium amount of money who have problems getting healthcare (raises hand)...if you have none you can be covered, if you have lots you can buy the best.

[lljkk]

Most people think that their own country is the greatest in the world. It's not a merely American affliction. Even Syrians think theirs is the best country on the planet, just having a few problems at the moment. Americans are a bit more ignorant than other cultures, in not realising that everyone else thinks that about their own nation, too.

British are among the least likely to call their own nation fab, self-deprecating culture, but they still do it sometimes. Is there a more self-deprecating culture on the planet than the British?

[Hamishbear]

When we talk about the greatest we usually mean the most powerful and therefore the richest. It is - in this sense - but not for much longer.

[SomersetONeil]

Cheerful - it's probably just good that they didn't play Dixie.

I have duel citizenship and adore both my countries, but don't think either country is the best in the word. I don't think any country is.

Our au pair is German, and I have been given such an unbelievable insight into that country's psyche via one young person. My DH asked her about football and she admitted, aged 20, that football is the ONLY thing they're allowed to be proud of. The only thing. Not even the Oympics. Let alone the country itself.

Every county has its idiocincracies... No country is the best. None is the worst, either. Every country belongs to someone and is their best country. Which is quite nice.

[dreamingbohemian]

I'm American and think YABU a little bit.

Many, many peoples in the world have intense patriotism. Russia? Japan? Have you ever talked to an Iranian? It's not just an American failing.

American exceptionalism is very much drummed into you from birth. Our founding is a big part of it go back and read the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights now, they are still very inspiring documents. And even more so when you consider they were written at a time when monarchy was the norm and when you realise that a huge chunk of the world's population today still does not have those rights.

Yes, those ideals are not borne out in practice. That's why they're ideals. But I think it still means something that we believe in them so fervently, even if it's hard to make good on them.

You also have to remember the huge boost to exceptionalism that occurred after World War II, and even more after the end of the Cold War, when the US became the only global superpower. I'm pretty sure that throughout history, the leading imperial power of the day was pretty arrogant about it.

I mean, wasn't this a big normative driver of British colonialism back in the day? The idea that British civilisation was the pinnacle of human achievement and needed to be spread throughout the world?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not at all the type to say the US is the greatest country ever, and I do see all the problems. I just think it's kind of inevitable that many people living in strong and prosperous countries will become arrogant about it.

The French are even worse than the Americans, they just brag more eloquently

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

Just because I've seen it come up: remember, a lot of issues are governed by the individual states. These issues include: the death penalty, education, abortion rights, various levels of gun control.

So, not every state has the death penalty, not every state teaches "intelligent design" , not every state has restrictions on abortion, etc.

Yes, the Supreme Court makes the final decision on such things, and if a case were brought before them, and they were to decide that the laws of that state were unconstitutional, they would have to change the law. So the death penalty is allowed, as long as the means of death aren't cruel and unusual. (I'm vastly oversimplifying this issue for the sake of the wider explanation of the state laws v federal ones!)

I'm not sure how the "intelligent design" cases are being handled. I know that the piss-taking Pastafarians have, on local levels, challenged the presence of religious symbols in some schools and courthouses. This amuses me. :) I have just checked, even Kansas has returned to "mainstream scientific education", but yes at any time they or another state could decide to change this.

I realise this makes things confusing for outsiders to understand. However, it's the only way we (they- I've lived overseas almost 10 years now) can maintain anything like a "union" of states with such extreme differences in opinion and population size.

[mummytime]

dreaming - the thing is that Europe has had two bloody World Wars fought on its lands, which did teach them a lot about trying to impose your views on other countries. So in some ways Europe has "grown up" and worries that the US hasn't.
The disrespect for other cultures eg. the Koran shown by American's is seen as very worrying, especially given the US's huge military might.

"American exceptionalism is very much drummed into you from birth. Our founding is a big part of it go back and read the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights now, they are still very inspiring documents. And even more so when you consider they were written at a time when monarchy was the norm and when you realise that a huge chunk of the world's population today still does not have those rights."

Those documents are on the whole great ideals, but I am not sure that even all/most American's have/or believe they have those rights, truly. It is certainly true that there have been huge swathes of US history when most people living in the US did not have those rights.

And I like the US, have travelled quite widely (including massive Car journey's, and well off the beaten track).

[wordfactory]

America has its problems of course, but I think you'd be hard pushed to find a people where the can-do mentality is so deeply ingrained. And I love that about its culture.

[dreamingbohemian]

GreenEggs -- that's a really good point.

It's almost like saying Europeans don't respect women's rights because abortion is illegal in Ireland and Poland. I know that might sound like an exaggeration, but really, as a New Yorker, there is nothing I can do about attempts to limit abortion in Kansas. All I can do is vote for people who won't try to do the same thing in New York.

And thankfully, Americans are increasingly turning against the death penalty. More and more states are suspending or revoking it. Last year I think about 75 people were executed and it is dropping every year. I think in 10-15 years it will no longer exist.

I am far more worried about countries like Iran, which executes hundreds of people a year, including for political 'crimes', and China, which executes thousands, including for non-violent crimes like drug smuggling. Not to excuse what the US is doing, but at least I feel like we are on the right path, whereas things are getting worse elsewhere.

Mummy -- I agree. I think in a lot of ways the US needs to 'grow up'. I actually think our military and economic failures of recent years are making most Americans grow up. The ones still bragging the most about American greatness are, I think, the people in denial.

[ChantandbeHappy]

YANBU.

According to a recent article in the Economist recently, Switzerland is the best country to be born in 2013. The USA is in 16th place.

Link to the article here: www.economist.com/news/21566430-where-be-born-2013-lottery-life?fb_action_ids=10151345529204680&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=scn%2Ffb_ec%2Fthe_lottery_of_life&fb_source=timeline_og&action_object_map={%2210151345529204680%22%3A446253755433195}&action_type_map={%2210151345529204680%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map={%2210151345529204680%22%3A%22scn%2Ffb_ec%2Fthe_lottery_of_life%22}

[ChantandbeHappy]

Sorry for the crappy link and overuse of 'recent' . Should've previewed!

[EldritchCleavage]

'Greatest country in the world' is just part of the US national myth. Every country has one, usually based on some ancient foundation legend, the brave struggle for independence, whatever. Ours derives mostly from Shakespeare ('Once more unto the breach dear friends, once more'), with a bit of comfort history (the Armada, Nelson, Waterloo, the Blitz, we invented industry in Manchester etc) thrown in.

America is (at least to Americans) the shining city on the hill, the leader of the free world, the ultimate bastion of liberty, the greatest country in the world. It's ultimately not true, but that doesn't matter where national myths are concerned. The imagery and emotion it evokes is a potent force in their politics and public life, a belief or hope around which people can coalesce.

It's just annoying because it very overtly asserts dominion over everyone else and the national self-image contains a lot less awareness of flaws than many other countries.

[cornflowers]

"British are among the least likely to call their own nation fab, self-deprecating culture, but they still do it sometimes. Is there a more self-deprecating culture on the planet than the British?"

Actually, I think the famous British self-deprecation is largely disingenuous. Who was it that said that "to be born an Englishmen is to win life's lottery." I'd wager that plenty actually subscribe to that sort of view, albeit privately. Furthermore, many probably continue to hold the notion dear even after emigrating to sunnier climes.

[barapapa]

I also think if you asked people across the globe "if you could live anywhere, where would it be?" the most popular answer would be the States. I think that the 'American dream' concept of someone arriving penniless and their children being millionaires in one generation is still there. I think that feeds into the 'self-confidence/arrogance/patriotism' of some Americans.

[dreamingbohemian]

I think that's true, barapapa.

I used to work on Middle East issues around the time of 9/11 and the Iraq war, needless to say I heard a lot of anti-American arguments and hostility (which to be clear I had no problem with, as I was very very against that war). But I remember at one conference, sitting next to a man from Jordan, and he sort of rolled his eyes at one point and said, 'Yes, yes, America is the worst country in the world, meanwhile you go to any American embassy in the Middle East on the day they do visa interviews and the lines are around the block.'

I don't think everyone wants to go to the States, obviously, but having travelled all over I have seen for myself how many people would love to go to the US and start a new life there.

The American dream really does happen for some people. I personally know quite a lot of people back home who are immigrants or the children of immigrants and doing very very well. My own grandparents were immigrants and while I'm not rich I like to think I've done well in other ways.

Of course, a lot of people are NOT doing well, and that should not be overlooked. But I do think the social mobility that is possible in the US is really quite special and not matched in very many places.

The downside, though, is that it undercuts support for social welfare, because of course you just need to try harder and life will be fine.

[CheerfulYank]

Barapapa I know, personally, people that that has happened for. :)

And yes, I think that people do forget that the individual states have their own laws. I had someone have a go at me for the death penalty and ask how many people my personal politicians had killed, etc. The death penalty has been abolished in my state for over a century.

And I think people forget how different the regions of the US are. Where I live is as different a culture from, say, the Cajuns, as can be. We might as well be a different country in some respects!

[aurynne]

I must have only been in exceptional countries, because I know quite a lot of stories from people who were poor and raised out of poverty in every country I have been to. Perhaps in countries with a universal healthcare the stories are not as amazing as in the States, simply because people would no start their life living in the streets and having to sleep in toilets, so their rise would be "less extreme".

Americans love stories such as "The pursuit of happyness" because they prove you can turn your life around and succeed (aka earn lots of money, which seems to be the only measure of success for an American). People from other countries watch the movie and are horrified that Will Smith and his son had to sleep among garbage and almost starved to death, and worry about the millions who weren't Will Smith and are dying among filth everyday in the streets, because they did not "succeed".

[cynnerthenaughtyreindeer]

My brother is a border control officer, everyday he deals with people desperately trying to get into the US.
All this talk smacks of jealously and sour grapes. People still pissed American broke from the Empire, eh?

[monsterchild]

aurynne, many folks in the US worry about those millions dying among filth everyday in the streets, and those who don't have the ability to succeed, and those who don't have homes. It's a huge problem here in the US, and we know it.

It could be you don't get to see politicians talking about it, or read any of the blogs about it, but everyone here is aware.

And just as in every country, not everyone is motivated to do anything about it, but some of us are.

[EIizaDay]

Australian sound to be very similar to Americans. They too believe Australian is the best country in the world. I'm told on a weekly basis about them having the best beaches, the best seafood, the biggest this and that. Often it's from an Australian that has only visited somewhere in Asia on a holiday. It does get a bit tedious.

[CheerfulYank]

I'm sorry, but the idea that making a lot of money is the only measure of success by American standards is bullshit.

[monsterchild]

What I have noticed is that everyone is an expert on the US. Which is fine, but it really does feed into our obsession with ourselves. I mean, if we weren't so awesome, why would everyone know everything about us?

[aurynne]

monsterchild, 40 something percent of Americans still vote Republican... and we all had the chance to see what the presidential candidate thinks about those who haven't succeeded. I am sure there are some Americans who do care about it. But there are obviously not enough of them to make a change. Until then, USA is still the last in my list of desirable places to live in. I just could not be happy inn a country where "universal healthcare" is called "socialised medicine" as an insult and sneered at.

Jealous cynnerthenaughtyreindeer? I could easily be living there, I just needed to say "yes" to the job offer. I am happy just visiting for holidays from time to time, they do have amazing national parks. If you can ignore the humongous caravans and humongous Americans behind the wheels, stopping and taking photos from the inside and not even bothering to get out of the caravan to walk 100 m to the most amazing and beautiful spots. And this is not an exaggeration... Yosemite 2009. I was there. And then I went back to a country where all the population is covered if they get sick.

[Pitmountainpony]

I do think America is a great country.
I love the graciousness of the average American.i find the people kind and well mannered.
I understand why many yanks do not have passports...it I s party green approach really.....there is so much natural diversity here that you cnhve many fabulous holidays without getting on a plane.
I think Europeans kid themselves a little that they are so immersed in the culture when they have their two weeks in their insular Gite in France or hotel in turkey.i always hated the way many brits i knew in the uk were so quick to put Americans down......and assume in that way that only the thickest people do that all Americans are stupid,fat ec.......I do not miss that misplaced superiority complex that seems to afflict many seemingly educated Brits....and the arrested development nuances of the British drinking culture, where everyone pats themselves on their smug backs for knowing how to get pissed and have a really good time.

Reflecting on it. I do find America and its people i have encountered to exhibit more of what I thinks qualifies a country to be great, definitely compared to the UK, which whilst not charmless has some very untreated aspects and an arrogance in many that is misplaced....greatly. Sure no one on mumsnet is like that though.

[Pitmountainpony]

Ungreat aspects not untreated.
iPad being arrogant too and second guessing me.