To go absolutely ballistic? Bit long, sorry.

[Crimebusterofthesea]

My poor dad has been in hospital for the last 3 weeks with pneumonia and sepsis. When he was first admitted he suffered from terrible delirium and was hallucinating. At one point, when he was moved ward he became extremely agitated and angry as he didn't know where he was. It turns out that he tried to attack one of the nurses and security were called and had to restrain him. We were all shocked at this as it is so out of character but the delirium was so extreme, he was terrified.

When my mum visited the day after this, she read his notes (this was how she found out about the incident, no-one mentioned it to her when she asked the nurses for an update) and the day after this, the page of notes detailing the incident had been removed.

My dad is a lot better now but it still a little confused about things but has mentioned being wrestled to the ground and being punched in the face. He was covered in bruises a couple of days after the incident but he does bruise really easily and we just thought that they had to do what they had to do. We have now realised though that he is also missing a tooth! He put his plate in for the first time today and when he smiled, we all said that he had a tooth missing. He said 'I thought it felt a bit funny' and then said 'they must have knocked it out when they punched me in the face'. I am beyond angry and wish I, along with mum, had pursued this sooner but to be honest, we just didn't have time to focus on this when we were just willing him to get better.

What the bloody hell do we do? This isn't right, is it? Restrain, of course. Punch him in the face and knock out a tooth? I don't think so. And surely the fact they removed the notes and haven't mentioned anything isn't right either. Will there be an incident report and do we have a right to read it? What if this security guard does this to another patient? Advice very much appreciated!!

As you werent there how do you know that it wasnt knocked out in the struggle? It is strange that it is being covered up but there is nothing to say that it wasnt knocked out innocently during restraint, I dont think you cant trust your dads interpretation at the time. Rather than reacting angrily have you tried speaking with staff?

I have urged my mum to ring the hospital tonight and I am going to visit tomorrow so will ask to speak to someone then. I know that we can't trust my dad's interpretation completely but why would they remove the notes if they weren't trying to hide something? Also, although he was agitated at the time, he would have been extremely weak so I can't see how there could have been much of a struggle.

That point is very valid, i am just urging a calm approach. WRT what was read, if they wont acknowledge it happened that is fishy...

Try contacting the PALS service at the hospital.

Contact PALS. They have been good in my experience.

Ok, I'll get in contact with PALS tomorrow. I would never go ballistic anyway, am just so angry. I'm more the sort of person who will start to talk and then turn into a blubbering wreck!

You have every right to be if it transpires there is wrong doing, it just seems to be quite unlikely to be the way you poor dad is remembering on a ward which presumably had other patients, hopefully there is a logical and non horrid explanation

Hi op, I was a ward sister a few years ago.

In my experience its vital for staff to be absolutely honest and upfront with patients and relatives over everything.

I can't say what happened here but if a patient has been restrained, becomes violent, not to say has bruises then this was all recorded.

Speak to the nurse in charge and ask for an explanation.

I don't blame you for being upset and you should absolutely get to the bottom of this

But having been in the recieving end of attacks by even tiny little old ladies who look like they'd blow over in a breeze, a lot of damage can be done when someone lashes out because they are delusional. It is honestly surprising how difficult it can be to restrain someone who is being very aggressive, I've got the scars to prove it

I'm not saying that's what happened with your dad, but maybe hold off on going in all guns blazing until you know what happened? I'm really sorry about your dad though I hope you can get this sorted out as soon as possible

Thanks thebody - it is the feeling that something is being hidden which is making me more angry than anything else, and obviously has lead me to think that something happened that shouldn't have. I understand completely that they had to restrain him, as unpleasant as it is, but I can't help but think of the worst case scenario in that the security guard did use unnecessary force and did punch him in the face. As strawberries says, I just hope there is a logical explanation. Will be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

Why is your mum reading his notes? Has he asked her to do that? I wonder actually if the page has been removed to protect his privacy and dignity. I know you are his daughter and she is his wife. That doesn't mean you need to know all the details of this very upsetting occasion. You don't know how he lost the tooth and given his confusion I certainly don't think you can take his word for it.

I would ask to speak to the Sister or Charge nurse and simply raise your concerns:
Was he appropriately restrained?
Were punches thrown?
How is the nurse who was involved now? Was he/she injured/off work at all?
Is there anything else that's happened that's caused them concern?
Why were the notes moved?
Why didn't anybody tell your mum?

I'm betting there are perfectly reasonable explanations for all of this. I think you need to calm down tbh.

Really hope you can get to the bottom of this crime, whatever happened you should have been informed

Exactly, you need to know the facts or you can't move on here or trust the staff.

Northern - Dad did ask for her to read his notes. Yes, we don't know how he lost his tooth, but we should know, shouldn't we? I have already said that I recognise the fact we can't take his word for what happened, which makes the fact they haven't explained everything in full all the more upsetting. I am calm and won't go ballistic anyway, I'm just upset at the thought of what could have happened.

Weak people can become like supermen in the right circumstances.

My BIL who had been paralysed for years, weak as a kitten, cared for by SIL, became violent and aggressive when he fell out of bed and SIL was trying to get him back in. So aggressive and strong that she had to call an ambulance and when the paramedics couldn't manage him either, they called the cops for a hand. BIL was hallucinating and delirious and who knows what he thought was going on, but it took two paramedics and two strapping policemen to get him into the ambulance and back to hospital (he should never have been discharged tbh).

I'm only telling you, so that you know that even the tiniest, weakest person can surprise you when they're delirious.

The hospital covering it up is definitely something to be concerned about. Hope you get to the bottom of it quickly and easily.

Crimebuster, you've just got to the nub of the problem, he lost a tooth and no one discussed what happened with you or your mum, which is what you would expect given that he was in a vulnerable condition at the time.
Speak to the nurse in charge the next time you go in and be ready to escalate it if you don't get a proper answer.

You must speak to the senior staff on the ward, preferably with your mum who actually saw the notes and ask why your dad's family wasn't informed of this incident, why the notes were removed, why your dad is missing a tooth and why his family weren't informed about this. Write questions down, ask for a formal meeting and go through them with the senior staff member noting down her/his answers.

If you're not happy with the answers, ask for a copy of the Complaints Procedure and contact PALS (patient advice and liaison service) who are often really helpful in situations like this.

Good luck.

Thanks everyone - have just spoken to my mum who has made a list of questions. We are going together tomorrow and will start the ball rolling.

One other thing to consider, it may be the paperwork has been removed to protect a member of staff privacy, as your Dad in his confused state may have hurt one of them. And they now require treatment

Or they didnt want you or him to be upset at finding out he'd hurt someone. I once had my arm broken by a little old chap, he'd actually been aiming for my 7 months pregarant HCA.

the patient when he was back to himself was told by another patient what had happen and became very depressed, and scared to go home incase he hurt one of his family

It is more likily that the tooth got knocked out in the struggle, punching someone is not a good way of restraining someone. The point of restraining a patient is to prevent them from hurting themselves and then others, and hospital security will be trained in the right way to do this. I not saying that there aren't shits in every job, but give them a chance to explain.

Go to PALS and ask them to help set up a meeting with the nurse in charge of your Dads care, this may not be the charge nurse, but there should be a Named Nurse and ask them (a) what happened, (b) why was this not explained to your Mum/you sooner.

I hope you get some answers. I am wondering if the tooth has come out when the plate's been dropped? Are you sure he was wearing it when the incident took place? All sorts of odd things happen to people's teeth in hospital and getting them fixed is a total 'mare!

Good luck tomorrow. Hope you get some answers.

Speak to the person in charge. It may be that your father is confused about the incident. His tooth could accidentally have been broken. Anything could have happened and he won't necessarily be able to tell you.

My mother had a terminal illness (acute myeloid leukemia) and I looked after her at home. She was on continuous intravenous morphine. Her illness I believe also caused her confusion. A couple of weeks before she died we were given a nurse to come in and watch over her overnight - and attend to her needs - so that I could get a rest. They were all lovely ladies and one in particular was a really gentle soul. Anyway, I went to sleep in the next bedroom - and of course slept lightly and tossed and turned all night. In the morning my mother told me not to let this nurse back into her home again as she said the nurse had dragged her out of the bed and beat her up. My mother was absolutely convinced this was true. She was very plausible. However, I knew without a shadow of a doubt that it had just not happened. If I hadn't been there then I might have believed her! It happened that this same nurse was with me when my mother actually died and she was fabulous.

My point is, while I know that an incident did happen with your father, he may be remembering it differently to what actually happened because of the condition he was in at the time. He's not lying, as such, because he does believe it happened, but it may not have.

Of course it's possible that something inappropriate happened, but just hold back on making a judgment until you have all the facts.