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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why child benefit is now means tested but winter fuel payments aren't.

200 replies

ImagineJL · 03/12/2012 22:52

I can see the argument for reducing and removing child benefit for high earners (despite the fact that I am losing money myself), but why not apply the same principle to winter fuel payments? A colleague of mine is a hospital consultant, earning over 100k a year, so has just lost all his child benefit. But he still gets his winter fuel payment.

It seems a bit strange.

OP posts:
EdgarAllanPond · 04/12/2012 20:21

no central heating was a real downer.

i had a great childhood, not a warm one...

catsmother · 04/12/2012 20:22

My mum's favourite "we had it so hard" tale explains how her and dad sat on deckchairs for the 1st 18 months of married life. Cue much sympathy if tale is told to people of her generation. You see - they waited for their sofas, they didn't buy on tick etc etc.

What she completely omits to say however is that in their mid/late 20s they were able, in less than 18 months (since they met) to save up enough of a deposit to buy a 3 bed semi in a London suburb, within walking distance of 3 different tubes, lots of bus routes, various amenities etc. Neither of them had high flying and/or professional type careers - they had "average" jobs. Right now, there is NO way on earth a couple of similar age, doing the same job, would be able to save for a 10% deposit on a 1 bed flat in their area, let alone a 3 bed semi. How many people would gladly sit on deckchairs for the rest of their days if they could buy a decent family house as quickly as they did ?

Think people like my mum really have no idea what it's like now. Quite obviously, they, like everyone else are being affected by the general rise in the cost of living but generally speaking, I really do believe a much lower proportion of that generation suffered from housing and commuting costs the way many people do now. Turn the clock back 40-30 years and, for example, many more people were able to live closer to their place of work because overall housing wasn't as expensive and fewer jobs had been centralised.

Like Polkadot, my standard of living was higher growing up than it is now. Which is just crazy when I am far better qualified than either of my parents were. Furthermore both DP and I work - not for treats, but for essentials. My mum and dad survived on 1 wage - my mum didn't go back to paid work until I was 14 ... and although money was tight and they spent very carefully indeed, they could still afford to maintain their house, and afford a holiday each year even if it was "only" a week in the UK. We can't afford to do either on 2 wages.

Right now, my mum - who retired at 58 (a pipe dream for me which would only be possible if I win the lottery) goes on 2 holidays a year, gets a brand new car every 4 years (ours is 13 years old), can afford to pay a decorator and gardener when needed, meets up with friends for lunch and/or concerts at least 3 times a month. I don't imagine that the loss of £200 would make any difference to her at all. Nor would my MIL, who cruises at least twice a year, plus 1 UK holiday, plus 3-4 trips to relatives in Europe every year, notice if £200 disappeared .... I guess it'd mean she'd have to forego a few pots of Estee Lauder face cream.

Okay I sound bitter. I'm well aware of that, but am fed up hearing from various older members of my family, who, to a fault all seem to have this entitled attitude towards the comparatively comfortable lifestyles they enjoy. They deserve the way they live because they "worked hard" yet none of them were down the mines or risking life and limb in some way - we're talking "ordinary" jobs - in backroom banking, retail, admin type roles, sales, which were 9 to 5 Mon to Fri (no anti social hours). Yet if their working life was "hard", how come there's so little sympathy for the younger generation struggling today who are often working under much more trying conditions ? - opposite shifts (so very little partner/family time), long and expensive commutes, weekend/evening working, few workplace benefits, crap pensions to look forward to. In my family at least, it feels as if the older generation have retreated into their castles and drawn up the drawbridge behind them. I honestly don't know if they're incredibly naiive (and insensitive) or are deliberately pretending that they have no inkling how many people live today .... and however "hard" you work, comparatively few will be able to improve things for themselves. I know that most of my family work "harder" than their parents did. And these are the people who automatically get a payment they don't actually need. Of course £200 isn't, these days, that "much" but for me it's the principle of the thing - and the double standards - and the smuggery. The last few years have really made me reassess how I view some members of my family - and it's not nice.

ihategeorgeosborne · 04/12/2012 20:27

I think pensioners are really "entitled" to be honest. My PIL are loaded. They have 3 houses and pensions between them of at least 40k. They always plead poverty and never give anything to the dcs for Xmas or birthday, on the grounds of the fact that interest rates are so low that they can't afford it. Their children all went to private school and they ask us if ours will too!! "Hardly" I tell them (not that I agree with that in any case). They tell me they made huge sacrifices. I tell you man, they have not the first idea. They then tell me that I shouldn't complain about this government as they are only sorting out Labour's mess. They might change their tune if they actually had to face any cuts themselves.

MsElleTow · 04/12/2012 20:29

The OAP's of today were bloody lucky to be able to save for their old age! Most of us have far too much month left at the end of the money, can't afford to save a penny and by the time we get to retirement age, there won't be such a thing as a State Pension!

In other words, our generation are fucked!

expatinscotland · 04/12/2012 20:30

Well put, cats.

catsmother · 04/12/2012 20:30

Oh yeah - the "scandalously" low interest rates. If you were living on interest then fair enough, but when you have decent pensions as well I can't help thinking it'd be nice to have savings at all regardless of the interest they earnt.

ihategeorgeosborne · 04/12/2012 20:31

Also, my dad is just as bad. He thinks it's perfectly fair that we should lose CB. However, if I suggest to him that he should lose WFA, he says "Why? I'm entitled, I'm a pensioner". He then boasts that he's just bought a really nice crate of wine. I've reached a point where I can't spend time with either sets of parents now. They just have no idea how lucky they are. They just tell us that they made sacrifices and that we should too!!

expatinscotland · 04/12/2012 20:32

Or this 'They fought for our country?' When? My dad is 77-years-old, he was a boy during WWII. You'd have to be 83 years old to have been 16 even in1945. The number of WWII vets still alive is very tiny now.

VivaLeBeaver · 04/12/2012 20:36

Our generation is a ticking time bomb. The current gov put their heads in the sand and ignore it as they know they won't be the ones sorting it out in 30 years time so don't care.

There is a generation of people without pensions, without savings, struggling to get on the housing ladder. And the younger ones in their early 20s are struggling to get onto any sort of career ladder.

Some form of benefit will have to bail them out to some extent when they're 68 with no money. Sadly I suspect many people are going to be pretty much hand to mouth their whole lives.

MsElleTow · 04/12/2012 20:38

My Dad has got his head so far up his arse that he doesn't think there have been any cuts yet!Shock. That is despite DH being on the list to be made redundant from the RAF, twice. Fortunately he wasn't picked either time! I am facing the loss of my DLA, but according to him that is propaganda and speculation!Hmm.

Everytime I speak to them, which isn't often now because I cba, they are going on holiday, or have just come back! They have had 2 6 week holidays to New Zealand and the Far East in the last 18 months and countless trips to Europe!

I don't understand how detached from reality so many people are!

TheCrackFox · 04/12/2012 20:43

My dad got a really good job when he left school at 16 with 4 o levels. The equivalent job nowadays would need a degree and they are ever so cheap to come by now.

My PILs live in the south of France on FILs lovely gold plated final salary. MIL hasn't worked since she was 45 (now 70) because she didn't like work. Do they really deserve or need the WFA?

Expat has nailed it - if you qualify for pension credit you should get WFA. Bit of a broad brush but people with children have had the same treatment.

ihategeorgeosborne · 04/12/2012 20:47

Where I live, the only people living in the 4 and 5 bed detached houses are pensioners. The young families are all in the flats and 2 and 3 bed semis and many of us rent, even with allegedly good incomes. I don't know what the answers are, but it just isn't right.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 04/12/2012 20:51

Surely the arguments for keeping WFA is the same as the argument against all benefit cuts?

I've heard it said plenty of times on MN that other benefits shouldn't be cut, because despite there being a small minority of scroungers and fraudsters, it is better to ignore the few so as not to harm the many.

Why is the fuel allowance any different? Yes there are those that don't need it, but plenty do.

Imagine if it was suggested that DLA be means tested. There would be loads of threads and posts about how wrong it was. And I'd agree, but I don't see why WFA is that different.

MsElleTow · 04/12/2012 20:55

If I had the sort of money my parents and PILs have I wouldn't claim DLA!

If you are an OAP and you live in Spain, you shouldn't get WFA. If you are a millionaire OAP you shouldn't get WFA, IMO.

It seems it is OK to means test CB, so why would it be unfair to means test WFA?Confused

ihategeorgeosborne · 04/12/2012 21:00

Agree with MsElleTow, this thread is about WFA versus CB cuts. Well, if it's good enough to cut CB from families with a single earner on 50k, then it's good enough to do the same to WFA. Only in the case of WFA the threshold should be much lower, as they have no dependents and probably no housing costs either. What they have done does not make any sense what so ever. It can only be about not losing the grey vote, as they clearly don't give two shits for families.

spoonsspoonsspoons · 04/12/2012 21:06

catsmother

My parents have a similar tale about how they couldn't just go out and buy a bed and had to save up for curtains like we did in our rented house. The implication being that if we hadn't done that, we would have had more money towards a house deposit. The thing is those things were comparitively more expensive than they are now. Our whole house was furnished on around £300 quid, which is a miniscule percentage of a deposit for a house.

Roseformeplease · 04/12/2012 21:10

Controversially, I also think those who continue to keep and use a car should not be entitled to a free bus pass. It should be either / or and not both. It might be a rather crude way of means testing it but if you want free / cheap public transport you should surrender your licence.

ElectricalHoHoHoBanana · 04/12/2012 21:12

my parents are ones who dont need the winter fuel payment.....dad says he uses it to buy booze for christmas.....they are both pensioners with large pensions.

ihategeorgeosborne · 04/12/2012 21:14

The PIL always ask us if we are any closer to buying a house when ever we speak. I am so fed up of hearing it. What part of "we need to save a minimum of 30k do they not understand?" Like we're going to have saved that since the last time we spoke. Also, it is bloody impossible when paying rent to a landlord. Sometimes, I'm really tempted to say "When you die and leave us an inheritance!!" Grin

expatinscotland · 04/12/2012 21:19

'Imagine if it was suggested that DLA be means tested. There would be loads of threads and posts about how wrong it was. And I'd agree, but I don't see why WFA is that different.'

You really think there's no difference? DLA is not a universal benefit. Pensioners can get DLA, too. You have to fill in a fecking book to get it, with supporting statements from doctors, social workers, other HCPs.

expatinscotland · 04/12/2012 21:20

Oh, and DLA is going by the wayside come April. It's being replaced with PIP.

NOTHING is happening to WFA, which is a universal benefit given to people who are not even of the state retirement age, but under it.

DoingTheBestICan · 04/12/2012 21:25

I agree with the pp who said the baby boomers are pulling the drawbridge up behind them.
Fil is loaded and doesn't really care if we are struggling,there are a lot of selfish people out there.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 04/12/2012 21:27

I understand exactly what you are saying about DLA and agree with you, but as difficult as is is to get, it isn't means tested. Which is the basis upon which the OP suggested removing WFA. I think that's a good thing about both benefits.

PolkadotCircus · 04/12/2012 21:30

Great post Cats,you pretty much summed it up for me.

I totally agree about the bus passes too. My dad tends to use his when he's been out for a boozy lunch with his mates and can't drive home.My poor dp on top of a loooong stressful day cycles 16 miles to save the extortionate bus fare.A bus pass would really help.

People who drive brand new cars(which they replace regularly) do not need bus passes.

Why aren't we all getting help with commuting bills and rising train/bus fares?

ihategeorgeosborne · 04/12/2012 21:30

On a slightly different note, I have to say that I am dreading tomorrows budget. I wonder what goodies will be in store for us? Rest assured that pensioners will be fine, anyone with loads of property will be fine. So that just leaves.........Hmm