in wondering what the difference is between a female prostitute and a male one?

[THERhubarb]

Yes from another thread that I've decided not to contribute to any more. But there is a train on thought on that thread that a man who uses a prostitute is a rapist. So therefore this logic is also applied to male escorts who are used by women?

Wondered what people's thoughts were.

LRD thank you for your honesty. Yes I understand what you are saying but you are right, he did not go in there to pay for sex. They asked locals about massage parlours because they specifically wanted to avoid the whole brothel scene. I think dh was naive in thinking they would direct two young western lads to a legit massage parlour but then I can see that he was actually very naive back then and recovering from a mental illness, so also very vulnerable. He was taken advantage of. He had no idea he would end up having sex with her and was certainly shocked to the core when the penny dropped that she was a prostitute.

But this is why I say it is not black and white.

Male and female prostitutes either fall into the abused category or they don't. What do you do with a prostitute who claims they are not abused? Do you force them to accept that they are?

And yes, there are prostitutes who will lure men and women into the bedroom and then demand payment. In those cases just who is taking advantage of who?

I agree that the grey matter is in the minority, but that's why I cannot label those who pay for sex as abusers because not ALL of them are. There are those who pay for sex but don't have sex, they have talks and cuddles. Behind everyone there is a story, including the prostitutes and I'm pretty sure that we have no right to say that they are ALL abused.

But yes, we can work to stop this laddish culture, to stop adverts from projecting male strippers as just a bit of fun and to stop the sex trade completely. We are fighting a losing battle because the sex industry is one of the oldest, probably as old as the hills, but by constantly glamourising it or putting a humorous slant on it we are merely condoning it.

Sex should never be a paid commodity. Yes it is immoral. But each situation needs to be looked at and the minority needs to be taken into account.

But I think it is black and white.

I think his situation - I can see why you would forgive him and I certainly don't feel comfortable labelling him.

But that doesn't mean prostitution isn't an abusive practice. I'm sure it is.

I suppose if I knew him (which I don't, so it's kinda moot), I'd be pointing out it is his responsibility to secure consent for precisely this kind of reason. But I feel awkward getting into that when it's a situation I don't really know about.

I think the thing to concentrate on is therefore what you're saying at the end - that sex shouldn't be a commodity.

I dunno Rhubarb, your brother's situation is quite inusual. Most people who go to a prostitute know they are going to a prostitute to pay for sexual acts.
It could be argued that the masseuse sexually assaulted him, as she didn't seek his consent beforehand.

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Rhubarb
I think the problem is that you are arguing the case based on one experience of one person, rather than looking at the big picture.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but most men who visit prostitutes know what they are there for. And most prostitutes are abused.

I can't base my opinion on an issue purely on my own experiences, because my life is one of comparative privilege. I have no personal experience of being abused, of being a vulnerable teen, passed from man to man, of being unable to escape the horror that is the lives of these girls.

I also don't have the experience of being a contented call girl, one who is happy to exchange the use of my body for money.

So I am trying to look at this from a non subjective POV. And I can't get past these girls. Not much older than our daughters. How can we defend this when it hurts them?

Yes again I can see your point (don't think dh would take too kindly to the fact that I've discussed this on Mumsnet at all) but I still don't think that anything is black and white.

Ok, maybe zebras.

If you dig a little deeper you might just find that one first glance, the story of a young lad visiting a prostitute in Thailand is not as straightforward as it would appear. And it does raise the question of people being taken advantage of in vulnerable situations.

Not to say that she was not herself being abused and told to get western men in and coerce them into sex, then charging for it afterwards.

One thing I will be teaching my son is that you always always always ask. Even if she is ripping your clothes off, you need to be certain that she wants to have sex with you. Although if dh had asked, what do you reckon her answer would have been?

In the majority of cases (although I am not that knowledgeable so have no stats or evidence) I'm sure that women or men do not prostitute their bodies because they want to. They do it to make ends meet, to pay off debts, because they are hooked on drugs, because they are trapped into an abusive cycle which makes the men who use them, whilst not legally rapists, moral abusers if you like. And yes we should be defending them and shouting from the rooftops about this abuse, about trafficking.

But I do not feel comfortable in tainting anyone with the same brush because I know from life experience that things are never that simple. There are exceptions everywhere. Mumsnet itself has shown me that. Trust me, you start a thread here about how EVERYONE must own a TV and there will be one or two posters who beg to differ.

So yes, we should absolutely defend those being abused but I would never ever lump a group of people together and speak on their behalf.

And just to be absolutely clear, I would never defend prostitution. Not ever.

But then I used to think that all burglars were bastards who ought to be locked away, that they were scum. And then you meet one and you hear his story and suddenly it's not that simple.

Oh I don't know. I'm sure you know what I mean, but whether you agree or not, well that's up to you. We'll have to beg to differ on this one.

Sorry rhubarb, got confused between your brother and your DH there.

Even if paying for sex was illegal and the circumstances you described happened and a prosecution was brought, mitigating circumstances would probably lead to being found not guilty.

Snot a problem Doctrine. I have 3 brothers. One is a twat. The other has learning difficulties and the other has PTSD. We're a happy bunch!

I'm sure that my dh was not the only one btw, although I think saying he was assaulted is going a bit far. He went along with it willingly enough.

I think you will never get rid of prostitution - the desire for sex is too great and too many people lack the skills/are not prepared to put in the effort to find a loving partner, so prostitution is their answer.
If this is true, we have the option of locking up a lot of 'punters' or finding a way of removing the abuse aspect.
For some people, the abuse aspect cannot be separated from the act so this, in their view, is impossible, but personally, I think sex for money does not have to be abuse.
We all work and do things there we would rather not, but put up with it for money and I believe that, for some, sex comes into this category - they don't value it as highly as others.
Additionally the level of pay matters - sweat shops have been banned, but many people voluntarily work over 80 hrs a week as they get paid well. Maybe 'the happy hooker' is the well paid hooker?

I do believe we can get rid of prostitution.

I don't think the majority of punters are lonely types who're too socially awkward to have sex normally - you may be right they're not prepared to put in the effort. But many must be men with wives or girlfriends, so they can do it - they're chosing not to. I think if that choice were criminalized, many would realize it was no longer an acceptable option.

I don't think you could remove the abuse aspect of prostitution.

I'm sure there's a correlation between how well paid someone is and what they're prepared to put up with, but that doesn't (IMO) make it ok. In fact it makes me spit nails when someone who admits they were well-paid perpetuates the 'happy hooker' stereotype (Belle du Jour!).

No no, I don't believe the majority of punters are either.

But, do you think that male punters are more likely to be abusive than female punters? Are there any female punters who are socially awkward? Who just want to chat? Who just need a cuddle?

But paying to talk to someone else wouldn't be prostitution.

Rhubarb if you are of the view that paying for prostitution should be illegal because of its societal damage, every punter, male or female, is abusive as long as they are buying consent. If they buy consent to one sexual act and then perform another, or they use violence or threats or something, then they are committing more than one abusive act.

I don't think that making it illegal benefits the prostitutes whatsoever, nor does making it legal.

I guess I'm asking why women use male prostitutes? We know a minority of men don't actually have sex, or don't intend to have sex, or are coerced so are there any women who visit prostitutes (male or female) for the same reasons?

I've always been fascinated as to why women use prostitutes. You would assume that a woman could get sex without paying, unlike a man perhaps, so what's the deal?Genuine question.

I dunno if male punters would be more likely to be abusive than female punters.

I doubt there are many, male or female, who just want a cuddle. Maybe I'm cynical.

I think making it illegal would benefit prostitutes in the long run. Just as making it illegal to send children down the mines or up chimneys was in the long run beneficial. It can't happen in a vacuum - so you can't simply take away part of someone's livelihood, shrug, and say 'oh, that's all we're doing'.

But you can try to get women and men out of this industry, and I do think criminalizing the buying of sex would have to be part of doing that, or you will still get naive or desperate people getting sucked in.

I don't see why women would get sex without paying really?
I didn't know about the 'minority of men' you describe, but I also don't follow what you're getting at ... you mean you assume women who pay for prostituted men do so for the reasons this minority of men do? I don't see why.

I think it is easier for women to get sex than men, however it would not be good sex with their needs at the fore. A woman using a prostitute may not have penetrative sex, only good foreplay and do not have to worry about whether he enjoys it.
This is the fundamental of prostitution IMO, the lack of any need to care whether the other person enjoys it.
I think the way to go is legalisation of brothels, with mandatory counselling/discussion/support for workers on a regular basis to ensure they are happy to be there and see it as a better job choice than the alternatives. At the same time, users of unlicensed prostitutes/brothels are in prison for several years. I think this second is why legalisation has not worked elsewhere, there is insufficient punishment for illegal users.

No LRD, I don't know why women use prostitutes, I was asking really as well as thinking out loud.

Here's another question. Just again thinking out loud, I would be more humiliated and feel more abused if hired by a woman than a man. That would be forcing me to go against my sexuality and for me would be awful and feel much more abusive even if there was no penetrative sex. I hadn't really thought about women hiring women prostitutes before brady (I think?) mentioned it and now I'm left wondering how on earth that works and how the prostitute must feel?

I imagine the see it as a job - many jobs are unpleasant, such as wiping up after the elderly, but many people do it happily without complaining and do not see it as abuse - not that different?

Judging by UKsugarbabes.com website, I think the difference is about £35/hour

The difference is in the anatomy :)

youngmother1 - I don't really think you can compare caring for elderly or vulnerable people to prostitution!

I used to work as a home carer when a student and I loved my job. Yes I had to empty commodes, wipe bottoms, wash private regions, etc but I would be appauled if anyone compared that to abuse or prostitution. It really IS that different.

If anything, these poor elderly and vulnerable people often felt embarrassed about having a young girl come in and wipe their privates. And some carers were guilty of turning these people into victims.