to wonder if life with 2 children is NECESSARILY this fraught and chaotic?

[emeraldgirl1]

Went to visit my godchildren yesterday. They are absolutely wonderful children but very - ahem - spirited. Also there is (I think) a tricky age gap between them - a (very boisterous) boy of 6 and a girl of 16 months.

This means that whatever activity you are doing with one really can't be shared or enjoyed by the other, leading to either the older boy getting frustrated as his games are ruined by his sister trying to join in, or him going berserk with pent-up energy and whirling like a dervish as you do something a bit gentler/more age-appropriate with his little sister.

It seems as if he is only ever about an inch away from physically injuring her (not lightly!) as he does love to play with plastic swords etc which he waves wildly only inches from her face.

Their mum (a great mum) is pretty much permanently at the end of her tether, especially with her son, she cannot get them to do anything she wants when she wants it - even basic stuff like nappy changing, sitting down to eat etc.

I am expecting my first baby in a month (so admittedly my nerves were more frazzled than usual yesterday as I am so tired and had driven 2.5 hours to see them) but I was wondering yesterday - a genuine question - is life with children (more than one, I guess I am asking) necessarily that chaotic and fraught, OR is that a particular situation brought about by certain personalities and a possibly tricky age gap?

I am NOT one of those seen-and-not-heard people, I love children to be active and noisy and just be kids. But to me yesterday this looked - honestly - like the seventh circle of hell. Not a one off as I have seen it pretty much this bad before.

I adore my godchildren but it has honestly made me think - how am I going to cope with one of these???! And is planning a second one just madness?

Or does anyone have experiences of (a bit less) chaos and stress to gladden my heart?!

I have a ds who is 5 on Saturday (we have been counting down for 86 days....) and a dd who is 19 months. It can be fraught and chaotic without a doubt, but not all the time. I also remember when I was pregnant with ds meeting up with my old uni housemates - there were a number of kids all under 3 all running round and being loud. I must have sat on the sofa looking a bit shell shocked as one of them winked at me and said "Don't worry, they don't come out like this. You do de-sensitise over time"!!!

Totally depends on the childs personality.

Little boys can have loads of energy and some find it harder to sit still and play quietly. They need loads of exercise to tire them out... like boisterous puppies.

Its harder when you've a baby as well to balance their needs, especially if you are tired and don't feel like going outside and playing energetic games.

Children often behave like this when they are attention seeking. Sometimes negative adult attention is better than no adult attention. Nearly injuring the baby gets instant dramatic attention in a way that playing quietly probably doesn't.

brighterfuture - what you've posted makes a lot of sense to me. I can see that my godson likes the attention he gets when he is naughty, even if it is negative!

I don't know if my friend is 'right' (if there's any such thing!) in doing the other thing that she does which is to bend over backwards to try to include her toddler daughter in things that her son wants to do. So for example yesterday he finally agreed to sit down and do some art stuff and she said, "Oh, X [daughter] wants to play that too!" He hated this idea as immediately she started taking his crayons etc. Then the same thing happened again later when he wanted to play a card/board game. It was obviously not something his sister could possibly play but my friend brought her over and started trying to integrate her which really just meant that she picked up all the cards and annoyed her brother again... I guess maybe my friend is just desperate to find something for them to do together (?) but it seemed like this particular tactic was just creating more oportunities for her toddler to annoy the older one to the point of tantrum-throwing!!

I remember her doing this with a football game back in the summer too, when her little boy was quite energetically kicking a ball about and having a pretty good time and all of a sudden my friend tried to make him kick it gently to play with his sister and he went ballistic.

God, I am exhausted just typing this! Don't know how my friend copes, I do find it really hard when I watch situations like yesterday and want to help. Much easier to 'know' what not to do from the outside, I guess

All children have their moments where they are a complete PITA and can severely embarrass you. To not expect that is not being realistic. However, while I've had bad days with my two, most of the time things tick over nicely and our house is quite calm, happy and fun.

Content parents make content children. There is absolutely no need for permanent chaos. I truly believe some women make it happen just to be martyrs.

I think it does depend a lot on age and personality, yes. There's a year and a half between my two youngest - Ds is 5 and Dd is 3 and a half. Ds is ridiculously well behaved, but a very serious boy who likes to be left to play on his own. Dd on the other hand rarely does a thing she's asked, but is chatty, sociable and funny. When we're together in the house, it's often fraught and chaotic and, yes, usually one or the other is unhappy. Dd crying because she wants to play with her brother, or Ds crying because he doesn't want to play with his sister. They just have completely different personalities, it can be hard to find any common ground between them. I'm really hoping this changes as they get older - it was one of the reasons I wanted to have two so close together.

Probably a combination of age gap, the children's personalities and from your posts probably parenting as well. Dangerous behaviour with plastic sword results in a warning then removal of sword if it continues, this is pretty obvious I think. Maybe no swords etc in the house if this is typical behaviour.
If your children play well together then it is sometimes easier having more of them, but I don't think there is any way of knowing if they will or not!

Disagree that content parents make content children though. Probably calm and sensible parents are more likely to have calm and sensible children than very stressy or miserable parents but isn't a tidy correlation.

I think it depends on so many factors its impossible to get a definitive answer, personalities, age gap, parents expectations.....

My boys are 4.4 and 2.8 and life is pretty easy actually. They squabble occassionally over toys but 90% of the time they get on great. In fact the little one has really struggled with missing his brother when he started school! I'm definitely finding this the easiest stage by far.

It was hardwork when they were little (DS2 a difficult tube fed baby so time consuming) as they both needed me to do so much for them so our lives may have looked chaotic but it was fun too.

Comes down to management and personality .... my ds is 'heavily' managed as his personality is somewhat livelier than you describe- but as I find certain behaviors unacceptable so I have very tight boundaries. His reception teacher once sighed to me in the playground that he 'does need very clear and reiterated boundaries doesn't he?..... Yes and it is bloody exhausting, constantly rewarding the good behavior, monitoring the escalation of anything unacceptable (and dealing with it very firmly) and the sheer bloody physical/noise factor. Ds is like the Duracell bunny on speed....
DD is not exactly the shy and retiring type either... in some ways it's brilliant (plenty of personality in our house ) and I love their spirit and get up and go, but I often feel overwhelmed by them....

Depends on various factors, sounds like its more a personality and disapline issue with the older boy but as you say the dad doesnt help at all the mum is probably tired out and stressed out which makes things worse, or maybe you just got them on a bad day unless they are always like that.

16 months is bit of a tricky age with siblings cos they can't really join in anything yet they are very mobile. my youngest is that age and can see how he would be annoying at times to the older ones tbh, even though their ages are closer, so I dont make him join into everything when it doesnt suit

With one im sure it wont be chaotic so wouldnt worry for now about having your new baby! just see how it goes but im sure it will all be fine.

with two i dont feel like my life was chaotic, with 3 i do slightly but they are all under 5, and one has sn. when people come they say its calm and organised but that is only if I know they are coming and have time to tidy up before otherwise its always bit of a mess and all of them can be a handful when tired, so just depends

I went to see a friend and her 4month old when pg with my twins and it seemed like hard work. I've now got 2 1/2 yr twin boys and 1yr dd. I'm sure others look on in horror at times but it rarely feels totally manic or chaotic.

My sister has 2 children & everyone in their house communicates by shouting. An hour in their company would have my head spinning. In contrast, dsil has 6 children & it always felt far calmer. I think boundaries and respect to all were key differences.

OP that was us 3 years ago.
As soon as DD could walk she picked up darth vader's sword and fought back (literally).

They are now 8(DS) & 4 (DD) and very very close but still at each others throat for the tedious mundane daily stuff.
True it gets much better when the little one starts abiding by the rules of the game. Its very frustrating for the eldest having to put up with a "cheating" younger sibling, that gets away with murder just because they are little.

These days, I catch them giving each other reality checks, and advice on how to "handle" us, its hilarious.

Agree with others, it sounds like it's a mixture of parenting and personalities.

Your godson probably needs more firm rules and boundaries and the same time some time off from his sister. If she's inlvoved in all his activities (effectively spoling them as she's too young for some), he'll be very resentful of her.

We have four and at no time has it been as bad as going from one to zero !

Best of luck with your pregnancy

Also agree about a mixture of parenting and personalities. Admittedly, there was only an 18 month gap between ds1 and ds2 but their personalities were very different. Initially, I had two babies to care for and certainly, while ds1 wasn't slow in speaking, he simply didn't have the more sophisticated communication skills that help with calm reasoning. So if we had to change ds2's nappy/feed him or whatever before we went out, ds1 would rage around like a small tyrant.

When they got older they got ever closer but also, the difference in their personalities became ever more defined. So ds1 (on the surface a less extrovert child) would steadily wind up his more placid and tolerant brother. Eventually, everyone would boil over. Including me. The reverse side of this was their tendency to gang up!

Also, they had a particular fondness for the sort of games that were likely to have painful consequences if played in confined surroundings. So I didn't allow sword games - be they with swords or random pointy sticks - in the house. They got plenty of rushing around like mad things outside though and that's where there energies got run off. Whether this is a "Boy Thing" I don't know and I'm cautious about wild, gender based generalisations. However, I do know that most of their similarly aged friends that were girls seemed more open to reason and less to trying to wrestle their way through life.

Is it always chaos? Yes. To some extent. But chaos isn't always a bad thing providing you keep some sort of management of it. It wasn't relaxing but at least I never had jealousy or the need to reconcile the very different needs/abilities and expectations from siblings who are years apart in age.

The friends of mine who did have larger age gaps between their dcs worked out, quite quickly, that attempting to engage both children on the same activities at all times was often a recipe for disaster. It's not at all unreasonable for an older child to resent their games being "downsized" to take account of a toddler sibling and your friend needs to find things that they can both do but not necessarily together.

I'd be bothered about the level of rough play that puts your friend's dd at risk too. Some firmer boundaries probably need to be introduced.

I remember when I was pregnant with my first, we had some friends over for dinner with the two most out of control spirited boys and their toddler sister and when they left I burst into tears and said "I'm never going to cope". But as my DH gently pointed out, they don't emerge running around and beating each other aged 7 and 9, you get time to adapt and you also don't have to let them behave like that (although that is easier said than done I now realise!).

Pregnancy is a hideous time for making you think a. that you'll never cope and b. conversely, that of course your kids will never behave like that! I think it's a combination of the two, both much watered down. I now have 2 - one 2 next week and one 4 in January. It is bloody hard work, but much less hard work than it was this time last year. It is getting easier and less chaotic as time goes on. They play together brilliantly much of the time (with the odd spat and tantrum from all of us) and whilst it was horrendous to start with, I'm glad we opted for a less large age gap - although of course, that's not always in your control.

I feel for your friend though - it is exhausting having a tantruming 3 year old so I can't imagine what it's like to have one aged 6 - she is obviously far more patient than I am - he'd be strung up by now if it were me.

Meggymoodle - but of course, I am going to have an angelic child who never answers back and does exactly what they are told!!

AREN'T I???

Seriously though, I am honestly not sure I could live the way my friend lives. I am not claiming I will be some model of perfect parenting, far from it, but I do know that I couldn't possibly let slide an awful lot of the behaviour that my friend seems to have to let slide for fear of tantrums. I mean, it is not only possible but also right, isn't it, to try to prevent a small boy from destroying life and limb?

I remember now watching my friend when she was bathing her son years ago, he was probably about 2, and he was getting more and more out of control in the bath and splashing her and laughing and splashing her even more when she asked him to stop. (She was dressed up to go out for the first time in months so it was actually an issue) I remember at the time thinking - well, if that were my child I'd whisk him straight out of the bath and tell him no bath playtime until he learned to stop splashing when asked. But now I am pregnant I am panicking that I will end up in the same position as my friend, begging a wilfull toddler to behave :(

pick your battles and win them. other things can be overlooked. if you say 'no' follow it through always or they will ignore you.

no parent it perfect.

has he actually harmed anyone yet? doesn't sound as if he has.

my husband has a younger brother with similar age gap and he hated my MIL encouraging them to do things together when he was young - basically he felt he was a nuisance who got in the way.

Life with kids just is "chaotic". I have 1.

However chaotic life with DC is, there is nothing more wonderful than watching a person grow (up).

What alarmed me more was to read that you are 8 months pregnant and drove 2.5 hours to see them.

My DS was born a month premature.

pick your battles and win them. other things can be overlooked. if you say 'no' follow it through always or they will ignore you.

This absolutely, if you pick it up at the right moment you can deflect a tantrum but if you miss that time or you need to stop that behaviour you have to go headfirst into the tantrum. If you pick your battles and conserve your energy / persistence for those you will win them. It gets easier as it goes along, develop a tone of voice and a look that tells them they are heading for trouble.

DS1 was 3 1/2 when the twins were born, which is a double whammy for him. He has been amazing, it is down to his personality, we are very lucky, he plays with them and has a lot of patience. There are times when all three are crying / shouting / playing up and then I just look at the clock and work out how long I have until they are all in bed. Sometimes it works well and we have a great day, other times it just falls apart. I have no idea often why it does this, although DS1 has just stomped off upstairs and DD1 is no upset and I have no idea why.

I have DS (3.3) and DD (18m) and sometimes they play together or are sitting nicely both eating their dinner beautifully or walking along holding hands and I think oh yes, this is fine, what a great life etc then other times (like today ) I have spent most of the day ferrying DS to and from a class and then pre-school so DD is grumpy and bored and whinging to high heaven. They both needed pooey bums changed within 5 mins of each other so tea has gone stone cold and they are currently fighting over the Thomas engine on the trainset. Even when I had just one, you have times when it all goes like clockwork and you feel like something out of a Boden advert and others when you've run out of wipes or the buggy's tipped over or he's just scratched your face and spilled juice everywhere and everyone is looking (or it seems like it) etc. So it really is swings and roundabouts, but tonight, when DD is on my lap for her story and twists her fingers up in my hair and DS grabs me for a huge hug when I'm drying him after bath, you know why you do it and DON'T scream "Just shut the fuck UP" at them several times a day (out loud I mean, I do it in my head all the time )

No. Ds2 was 7 when dd was born. He was a VERY lively child, but he was lovely with dd and very gentle with her.

It is possible that your godson was acting up because he had an audience.

You mention that your friend's DH is useless.

I suspect that has a lot to do with her (their) ds's behaviour.

Mine have a six year gap between them. The oldest picks the youngest up from school. It's fab!

Mine are 7 and nearly 4, they often play nicely but also fairly frequently argue also - normal sibling stuff, one winds the other up and so on. I tend to let them get on with it unless one starts clumping the other round the head or something.

They entertain each other pretty well though and I can often get on with things better than when just one is there. Though equally it's nice to spend time with one at a time too every now and then. DD2 is less demanding at her age than DD1 was as she needed us to entertain/play with her a lot more. I imagine the most difficult age to come is when DD1 is 18/19 and going out with her friends and DD2 will be 14/15 - the age when you think you are so grown up and know everything.