Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU to ask your opinion on whether babies & children are being denied life saving treatment by the NHS?

127 replies

MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 09:15

I expect lots of people have heard recently in the press about something called the Liverpool care pathway. If you haven't, it basically entails the withdrawal of drugs, fluid and life supportive measures to people who are at the end of life but controversially also includes people who have had strokes who would survive but need huge levels of care.

Now sick babies go on death pathway: Doctor's haunting testimony reveals how children are put on end-of-life plan.

Until now, end of life regime the Liverpool Care Pathway was thought to have involved only elderly and terminally-ill adults.But the Mail can reveal the practice of withdrawing food and fluid by tube is being used on young patients as well as severely disabled newborn babies. One doctor has admitted starving and dehydrating ten babies to death in the neonatal unit of one hospital alone

Writing in a leading medical journal, the physician revealed the process can take an average of ten days during which a baby becomes ?smaller and shrunken

Are babies being denied life saving treatment? Or are they only being denied life prolonging treatment? Do fluids constitute life prolonging treatment? or are fluids as with oxygen a natural and necessary requirement of life and should never be denied?

Sorry it's the mail but I picked it up this morning because this is on the front page. [NOTE ADDED BY MNHQ: some posters, particularly bereaved parents, may find the contents of this article distressing]www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240075/Now-sick-babies-death-pathway-Doctors-haunting-testimony-reveals-children-end-life-plan.html

OP posts:
Northernlurker · 29/11/2012 12:34

I am so sick of these threads.

life cannot be saved in all circumstances. Dying can be painful, uncomfortable and distressing. The LCP is designed to support the care of people who are dying. My family, my children, my husband, myself - I do not want to see any of us struggling at the end of our lives.

MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 12:35

For the last time, the LCP is not euthanasia. It is allowing a patients imminent death to be comfortable, peaceful and dignified withdrawal of life prolonging treatment is different to the withdrawal of fluids and food though isn't it? because if you starve someone of fluids they WILL die even if they might not have done so. Some people have survived because they have been removed from LCP.......if they hadn't have been taken off the LCP they would definately have died.

Also I would point out that whilst doctors are not directly paid to put people on LCP, trusts given financial incentives to meet quotas. Indirectly pressure is applied to doctors.

OP posts:
threesocksmorgan · 29/11/2012 12:35

well imo if a child dies whilst having an operation, at least people were trying to save them.
where as just allowing a child to die is well wrong.

messybedhead · 29/11/2012 12:36

My nan died in a nursing home 2 years ago . She was 92 and had a good life.

But I remember being shocked when my aunt told me (when we were waiting for her to die) that she was sedated but they weren't given her any fluids or anything. I remember whispering to my mum that of course she's going to die, she's being starved and dehydrated until she dies.

I thought that I must have misunderstood. I had studied medical ethics and was informed about the double effect of morphine. But I am sure we were taught (9 years ago) that fluids are never withdrawn and that nobody would ever be starved/ dehydrated.

I thought that my aunt must have misunderstood. I don't even think she realised that it was an option to refuse. Then I heard about this Liverpool plan or whatever it was called and realised that its an acceptable and encouraged practice. Sad

ClippedPhoenix · 29/11/2012 12:41

I'm with Northlurker on this one.

Also my father died a very peaceful death at home due to a lovely doctor keeping him doped up to the eyeballs on morphine for a day whilst we all paid our last respects. In the evening she came again and probably administered one last lethal shot.

I can't thank her enough for doing this very kind act.

Enigmosaurus · 29/11/2012 12:42

I allowed my child to die. Thankfully it was not prolonged and she died less than an hour after birth but her prognosis was extremely poor and I did not want to cause her pain or harm. She had a number of unidentified congenital abnormalities and would have been severely disabled - post mortem examination diagnosed alobar holoprosencephaly. Go ahread and tell me I was wrong.

MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 12:43

I agree, one last lethal shot, no one will articulate though why this is not to be spoken of, according to the medical establishment, this never happens and has never happened.

OP posts:
junowiththegladrags · 29/11/2012 12:45

You realise the LCP is designed to be withdrawn if signs of recovery are found? It is not a set in stone plan. It's acknowledged that some patients will defy expectations and come off it.

ClippedPhoenix · 29/11/2012 12:47

Thank God it does happen though Mini.

Also my sister is head of an autistic unit attached to a primary school and she says that some of them are so severe and have absolutely no quality of life, it's so sad for them and their families, it would have been much kinder to have let them die. Sad

Moominsarescary · 29/11/2012 12:49

enigmos sorry for your loss, in the end I lost the baby at 20 weeks but had I gone to term and been told the prognosis was as I've explained above I would have made the same choice as you.

There is no way I would have put him through a prolonged death

mymatemax · 29/11/2012 12:50

Having spent months in SCBU with my very very sick very prem baby I cannot imagine any of the clinical staff opting for a care plan that is not in the childs best interest.
When we were givign up the doctors never did.

That said, there are times when under consultation & agreement with parents active life prolonging treatment is withdrawn.
I can see how this can be sensationalised by jouranlists to make headlines.

Sometimes making the hardest of decisions is appropriate & there are clinical guidlines to help clinicians guide parents through that process.

My son is disabled & always will be but never once did the clinician assume a bleak outlook and "play god". They gave him every opportunity to survive & we were under no illusion only if survival was not an option would any withdrawal of care be discussed.

junowiththegladrags · 29/11/2012 12:51

Enigmo and everyone who has been there, I'm sorry for your loss. I'm going to leave this now. There are too many half truths and myths muddying the waters which only cause upset for people.

YouScroogeYouLose · 29/11/2012 12:51

Whilst no one wants their dc to die I personally think it takes a great deal of bravery for a parent to make that choice an also for some to admit that maybe they could not give a severely disabled child a good quality of life or cope with the challenges.

I think lcp has some merits however I truly believe that if we are a civilised country we should legalise and and regulate euthanasia and stop the taboo around this subject.

Enigmosaurus · 29/11/2012 12:53

Sorry for your loss too Moomins.

MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 12:54

So doctors make a prognosis and therefore only their opinion is important. Even when the original prognosis was wrong they are allowed to change their mind. You see withdrawal of medical intervention doesn't always end in death but the withdrawal of water does! which one is fundamental to life? the withdrawal of one will cause harm and result in death in all cases. Therefore it would be more ethical to administer one fatal injection BUT only if doctors were capable of always getting the prognosis correct? bit like the arguments for and against hanging Hmm

Is the LCP a way of protecting trusts and doctors from litigation whilst we inflict 10 plus days of suffering.

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 12:56

Enigmosaurus I'm sorry for your loss. Every situation is different which is why I think people need to be aware of their options. Although no one can ever be sure what their feelings will be unless they are confronted with it. Sad

OP posts:
Northernlurker · 29/11/2012 13:07

Threesocks - seriously ill children need all appropriate interventions but taking anybody to theatre expecting them to die there is wrong. Do you realise how horrible that is?

I repeat sometimes life cannot be saved. Then all that matters is how you die. Dying children should die in their parents arms. Comfortable and supported. No child should die a forseeable death in an operating theatre.

No doctor or nurse puts a patient on the LCP because of money. The targets are there to ensure proper palliative care is in place. That's why people go on the LCP. Because they are dying and they should have as good a death as possible.

BegoniaBampot · 29/11/2012 13:11

I'm sure many people would agree that the one shot and it's over might be preferable but in the meantime there has to be some other way. I trust that enough doctors have the patients best interests at heart that if they feel this is an alternative method to not prevent prolonged suffering and death, then I don't currently see an alternative. I don't have a solution so I have to put my trust in those who are educated and deal with these issues. When my mum was dying a quick shot of morphine would have been kinder but all we cared for was that she suffered as little as possible under what medical treatment was available.

linoleum · 29/11/2012 13:38

I've copied the full piece over from the BMJ for balance, as in it's rush to paint doctors as evil people who want to kill babies the Daily Mail has missed out the most important part of this article - the third sentence:

The voice on the other end of the phone describes a newborn baby and a lengthy list of unexpected congenital anomalies. I have a growing sense of dread as I listen. The parents want ?nothing done? because they feel that these anomalies are not consistent with a basic human experience. I know that once decisions are made, life support will be withdrawn. Assuming this baby survives, we will be unable to give feed, and the parents will not want us to use artificial means to do so.

Regrettably, my predictions are correct. I realise as I go to meet the parents that this will be the 10th child for whom I have cared after a decision has been made to forgo medically provided feeding. The mother fidgets in her chair, unable to make eye contact. She dabs at angry tears, stricken. In a soft voice the father begins to tell me about their life, their other children, and their dashed hopes for this child. He speculates that the list of proposed surgeries and treatments are unfair and will leave his baby facing a future too full of uncertainty.

Like other parents in this predicament, they are now plagued with a terrible type of wishful thinking that they could never have imagined. They wish for their child to die quickly once the feeding and fluids are stopped. They wish for pneumonia. They wish for no suffering. They wish for no visible changes to their precious baby. Their wishes, however, are not consistent with my experience. Survival is often much longer than most physicians think; reflecting on my previous patients, the median time from withdrawal of hydration to death was 10 days.

Parents and care teams are unprepared for the sometimes severe changes that they will witness in the child?s physical appearance as severe dehydration ensues. I try to make these matters clear from the outset so that these parents do not make a decision that they will come to regret. I try to prepare them for the coming collective agony that we will undoubtedly share, regardless of their certainty about their decision. I know, as they cannot, the unique horror of witnessing a child become smaller and shrunken, as the only route out of a life that has become excruciating to the patient or to the parents who love their baby. I reflect on how sanitised this experience seems within the literature about making this decision. As a doctor, I struggle with the emotional burden of accompanying the patient and his or her family through this experience, as much as with the philosophical details of it.

Debate at the front lines of healthcare about the morality of taking this decision has remained heated, regardless of what ethical and legal guidelines have to offer.1 2 In our programme?s experience, no family has wanted to take their child home in this scenario, despite adequate community healthcare resources to do so. This family is no different. Therefore, we provide education to the entire care unit, from cleaners and clerks to administrators, nursing, and medical staff. It is imperative that they understand the ethical and legal sanctions for the decision that they will witness. We will go on to spend inordinate amounts of time with the baby?s care team. Providing forums for discussion and support of team members will extend from now until days after this tiny person has died. Not uniquely, the parents come to feel that the disaster of their situation is intolerable; they can no longer bear witness to the slow demise of their child. This increases the burden on the caregivers, without parents at the bedside to direct their child?s care. Despite involvement from the clinical ethics and spiritual care services, the vacuum of direction leads to divisions within the care team.

It is draining to be the most responsible physician. Everyone is looking to me to preside over and support this process. I am honest with the nurse when I say that it is getting more and more difficult to make my legs walk me on to this unit as the days elapse, that examining the baby is an indescribable mixture of compassion, revulsion, and pain.

Some say withdrawing medically provided hydration and nutrition is akin to withdrawing any other form of life support. Maybe, but that is not how it feels. In action, it seems like withdrawing a ventilator from a patient in an atmosphere of 0% oxygen. Meanwhile, vigorous discussions about whether others would undertake such a decision on behalf their own child occur over the coffee pot in the staff room. I sigh; we cannot know what decisions any of us would make, faced with the prospects that these parents confront. As I am embroiled in this situation once again, the one thing that helps me a little is the realisation that this process is necessarily difficult. It needs to be. To acknowledge that a child?s prospects are so dire, so limited, that we will not or cannot provide artificial nutrition is self selecting for the rarity of the situations in which parents and care teams would ever consider it.

Notes

TakeMyEyesButNotTheGoat · 29/11/2012 15:28

The LCP is NOT a tool for killing off patients.

Never believe everything you read in the papers etc.

After 11 years of care of the elderly medicine, I have never come across a patient being denied food and fluids to make them die quicker.

Some HAVE to be NIl by Mouth for medical reasons.

threesocksmorgan · 29/11/2012 15:31

omg I wish I hadn't read that post. that is so sick

FutTheShuckUp · 29/11/2012 16:08

What post is sick?
Threesocks if this discussion is too emotive for you why insist on continuing?

MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 16:09

Some say withdrawing medically provided hydration and nutrition is akin to withdrawing any other form of life support. Maybe, but that is not how it feels. In action, it seems like withdrawing a ventilator from a patient in an atmosphere of 0% oxygen

If someone is going to be denied the basics of food/hydration and oxygen and they are going to die, why string it out? It is not the same as just withdrawing medical interventions, the basics such as hydration and oxygen are necessary to sustain life and if they were denied to someone who was healthy, they too would die. It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

The cut and paste from the BMJ is actually at the bottom of the page in the link to the mail as well.

I don't think the LCP is a tool for killing people but I don't think it is a way of ensuring a dignified end either. What is interesting is that the ACT guidelines, stop short of talking about end of life care.......so it would seem that LCP is used to hasten the death of babies whos conditions are thought to make them incompatible with life. If the diagnosis is correct, why make them suffer? is it possible that sometimes babies/adults defy that diagnosis and pull through? how many might have done had they not been placed on the LCP? does anyone know?

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 29/11/2012 16:13

I think this sort of issue is always going to be emotive, if it doesn't make people feel uncomfortable, that is a worry. the doctor who wrote the piece in in BMJ said about how uncomfortable the medical staff feel "one thing that helps me a little is the realisation that this process is necessarily difficult. It needs to be"

OP posts:
FutTheShuckUp · 29/11/2012 16:16

Yes everyone is going to find it emotive but im struggling to see where the 'sick' posts are?