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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have complained to school for showing Schindler's List to yr 9's

376 replies

jjazz · 07/11/2012 21:32

Just that really. Dont know which parts they showed but DD was awake at 11.15 last night -upset as the scenes were still in her head. She is sensitive but not over emotional imo. she was 13 at end of August so is a 'young' year nine although the film is a 15 so none of the group would have been that age.

OP posts:
ZZZenAgain · 09/11/2012 11:45

intially yes ,Franca it was done in secret obviously but they slipped up a great deal , giving causes of death which were not possible so that families questioned it and so on, and the news of what was really happening leaked. It did become general knowledge in the end but was not met with wide enthusiasm, certainly not amongst families of those disabled people so it was stopped but by then, as I said, the plan had been pretty much carried out.

valiumredhead · 09/11/2012 11:48

When I asked my Grandmother about the war , I asked her if she was terrified all the time and how people coped day to day - she lived in a small village in the country. She said most people had no idea what was going on really, it was 'easier' to cope with than it would be today with the internet,24 hr news etc and constant access to information. So I can quite imagine that people did not know about gas chambers etc until after the war.

God, it's so bloody grim isn't it? And hardly any time ago really Sad

ZZZenAgain · 09/11/2012 11:49

to me it feels very distant

valiumredhead · 09/11/2012 11:52

Does it zz? It doesn't to me but perhaps that's because my grandparents always talked to us about things that happened to them, so it definitely seems more 'real.' iykwim? My grandad wrote letters to my ds about things he could remember about the war - there are about 10 of them each a couple of pages long or more, I really treasure them and I'm sure ds will appreciate them even more as he grows older.

Francagoestohollywood · 09/11/2012 11:56

It feels very close to me, actually.

www.einaudi.it/libri/libro/marco-paolini/ausmerzen/978880621017. This is the book I read.

porridgelover · 09/11/2012 12:29

ZZ I agree with your post at 10.46 about the level of awareness inside Germany at the time. My grandfather who lived in Ireland at the time, said that he was aware during the war of the rumours of what was happening to Jewish people. So, I find it hard to believe that Germans didn't.
But I find it easy to believe that such an atmosphere of generalised fear existed that Germans didn't discuss it with each other.
I have spoken to a German friend of mine, she's in her late 40's, about this. She said that growing up, it was just not spoken about.

Back to the OP...YABU to complain to school about it though YANBU to be concerned for your daughter. It is upsetting. But thats to the good I think. Fostering a sense of humanity is an essential part of parenting; understanding how others suffer; understanding how intensely difficult it is break away from the herd to follow your conscience.

My mother was born during the war and learned of the Holocaust as a young adult. She ensured we all grew up fascinated by history and those events in particular. One of the most difficult but valuable things I have done with her was to visit a synagogue in Prague, wherein you can read, etched on the walls, the lists of names of those deported and their ages.
Upstairs was an exhibition of drawings done by children in the camps, as their teachers tried to maintain normality.
Lest we forget.

ZZZenAgain · 09/11/2012 12:49

well we will never know. Which grandparent will openly tell their child or grandchild that they knew about this kind of thing going on around them or even had an active and willing role in any of it? A rare one I would think.

Anyway the point of studying the holocaust isn't to engender a deep mistrust of or disliking for the Germans. Would defeat the purpose. I would think the aim has to be to twofold: study the nature of dictatorship on hand a culture not far removed from our own and in time non too distant. Once a dictatorship is established, opposition becomes extremely difficult and one goal of a dictatorship will always be to bring people in line with state thinking and policy. How the Nazis set this up and how they achieved things is a good lesson to learn. We need to take out of it to be questioning, aware of what is going on around us politically, to be sceptical, to be alert to detect attempts by others to manipulate our thoughts and actions - and to act in time really.

The other point is to understand how a group of people can be made to look the villians in order to victimize them. We know this after the holocaust at the latest really but it still goes on. We need to learn how easy it is unfortunately to get people to see others in this way so we are aware when this kind of thing is going on around us and inside us and also to realise how easily this kind of thing can turn against any group we might belong to.

If we just soak up a lot of detail about the horrific reality of Nazi cruelty, genocide and war crimes, we are sickened by it but I am not sure that achieves that much. That is why I wonder sometimes if we go about teaching this in the right way. I don't know however what the right way might be.

Francagoestohollywood · 09/11/2012 12:54

I absolutely agree with you Zzz.

porridgelover · 09/11/2012 13:05

Yes. Dont know if you are following the BBC4 series ATM ; its an old one 'The Nazis: a warning from history'. There was an interview with an elderly Lithuanian (I think gentleman) who had taken part in a pogrom against the locals who were Jewish. I replayed it several times as you could see the dissonance between his words and the shame of talking about it in front of a film crew. I cant envisage him telling his grandchildren.

I find fascinating the many experiments that Psychologists do WRT how people react in groups or to follow 'authority'; how we give up our individual consciences to stay 'in'. So many studies have been done on this.

I agree about not turning it into a hatred of Germans....that would be facile. The reason to study it is exactly because any of us could have been/have now the potential to be, the same.

And as you say, how easily this can turn against any group we might belong to.
THAT to me is the lesson.....this was not an isolated act of madness by those people.
These were the actions of people just like the posters on this thread.

I agree about the slightly macabre interest that neglects to learn the lessons.

MousyMouse · 09/11/2012 13:07

if you want to watch other good films about this time: life is beautiful

it's has very funny laughing-out-loud szenes but at the same time very upsetting, I left the cinema with a big lump in my throat. it shows the struggles of a mixed jewish families and life in a concentration camp.

valiumredhead · 09/11/2012 13:10

I have that on sky plus mousy as my dad said it was an amazing film. Not seen it yet.

Yellowtip · 09/11/2012 13:19

I'd be fine with my own Y9 DC watching Schindler's List.

Auchwitz recommends that children under the age of 14 don't visit.

It's pretty personal, but I'd have thought Y9 was ok.

AuntFini · 09/11/2012 13:43

By saying it was a myth I do not mean that all Germans knew explicitly that Jews were being gassed. They did know that people were round up and killed as this happened in smaller camps just outside towns and villages. And yes, afterwards it was not spoken about in Germany- even leading up to the 90s (apart from late 60s/70s in the west; studentenbewegung etc).

It is vital the pupils know the truth- that normal, everyday people knew of, and were part of, a system that brutally killed millions of people. It is important to know how and why fascist parties take hold and how the media can manipulate.

I do not advocate a hatred ffor Germans or a blame for Germans. I do not necessarily hold with the theory that the Holocaust was unique to Germany (although some aspects of that era were caused by specifically German issues). As a teacher, my priority in teaching the Holocaust is not just to let the pupils feel sad. It's to educate them in how and why this could have happened.

I am a German teacher and have studied to MA level. I have a deep love for Germany and would never wish to suggest that anyone should hate Germany for things that happened in the past.

porridgelover · 09/11/2012 13:55

"It is vital the pupils know the truth- that normal, everyday people knew of, and were part of, a system that brutally killed millions of people. It is important to know how and why fascist parties take hold and how the media can manipulate."

To me this is the key point.
That this could happen again, with the right ingredients.
Srebenica happened. Rwanda happened. Those are extreme examples.

But when it happens, it's like a kettle boiling....lots of heating up, lots of festering, slight discontent is stoked to become hatred. Then it's done. 6 million people in what? 5 years?
There are lots of 'outgroups' in society....at one time, it was if you are black, homosexual. Gypsies still get the same terminology. Catholics and Jews will hear the odd comment.

Holding the line against casual discrimination on any basis, is the only remedy, to my mind. Because the casual engenders a feeling of permission to do worse.
If showing SL allows classes to discuss the causes and how easy it is to get to that point, then some slight discomfort is worth it.

Sorry, have totally wandered away from OP to my soapbox.

Chopstheduck · 09/11/2012 14:39

AuntFini - I do get your point, but one of the bits that really got me in Schindlers List is the scene where a girl is screaming Goodbye Jews, with a look of sheer vehemence on her face, and the people around her are throwing stones. It may have only brushed upon it, but it was a chilling moment, for those very reasons. That it was normal people that had turned against the jewish people, and couldn't be dismissed as a few deranged monsters.

sleepsforwimps2010 · 09/11/2012 15:22

my grandad was a pow, he was one of those held by the Japanese and forced to build the bridge of the river kwai. his experiences haunted him till the end of his life.
when i saw that film i was in my early teens, the effect on me was massive; even now the idea of it upsets me...
but i sit here now feeding my baby, only a live because he survive. as upsetting as it is, its necessary to know the past to protect the future.
lest we forget.

mathanxiety · 11/11/2012 01:15

In Schhindler's list the man who runs the camp is shown as mad and unstable. In the bitsp the wife of the head of a camp doesn't even know that the Jewish people are being murdered!! These two messages perpetuate a myth that the average person in Germany 'did not know' or that those who were in the Nazi party must have been mad/abnormal people.

Amon Goeth was most likely a sadist and psychopath though. The message a teacher might extrapolate from SL is that people in their millions voted for people just like him, or people who promoted the Goeths of this world (the Dirlewanger brigade for instance) or allowed them free rein (as in the 'wild' phase of the development of the KL system). The development of the Third Reich's reign of terror in occupied Europe was accomplished by allowing people with a lust to kill the chance to do so. There was an appearance of absolute control and order but the reality was that everyone on the ground knew that they could do exactly as they wished by way of brutality, sadism, etc., and nobody would hold them accountable. Goeth himself was arrested by the Nazis themselves, accused of financial improprieties (keeping more than his fair share of the personal property of dead Jews, which was by law the property of the state). He was diagnosed with a mental illness by SS doctors.

There is a film of the meeting between Monika Hertwig (daughter of Goeth) and Helen Jonas, who was a Jewish slave forced to live as a housemaid in the Goeth house. The film shows them returning to the villa at Plaszow and talking about Goeth and life at the camp, as well as Monika's mother (whom Monika had loathed from the start of her conscious life). Helen Jonas described Monika's mother as a witless, bored, self indulgent woman, and described a scene where she came upon her reclining in the bath with cucumber slices over her eyes -- this at a time when not far from the bathtub people were dropping dead from starvation. Ruth Kalder Goeth committed suicide in 1983.

It is very unlikely that German people knew nothing or knew very little of the holocaust or of the camps. Many labour camps were located in Germany itself and German SS personnel were guards, telephonists, drivers, etc. Labour camps housed slaves who were marched into factories outside of the camp fences every day, factories that were often owned and managed and supervised by German citizens. Farms were ploughed by slaves and slaves tended livestock. Slaves were everywhere in Nazi Germany. People knew how they were treated and how cheap their lives were. Though letters home were censored, soldiers came home on leave.

As the war dragged on many of the camps became hotbeds of disease and epidemics and in some the business of burying (or burning) bodies was not seen to. An uncle of mine (army engineer officer) ended up stationed about 50 km from Bergen Belsen and could smell the decomposing remains of prisoners when the wind blew in the right direction. The British, who liberated the camp, used bulldozers to clear piles or corpses into mass graves and they torched the buildings. In addition to smell and contact with personnel who worked there, about 60,000 Germans (aryans) who were Communists or pacifists or gay or clergy or whatever were incarcerated. In the early days people were held and then released occasionally in terrible shape from places like Dachau (founded in 1933).

Kristallnacht involved popular participation, camps were known about and the brutality of the SS and SA too, or nobody would have had enough fear of the regime to keep from speaking out. (That is, if they cared enough about the Jews to speak out. Maybe that is too much of an assumption).

After the sermon of Prince Bishop von Galen, the murder of people deemed unfit for life was also known about. The Nazis could not lay a finger on von Galen (though they tried).

The Danes knew enough about the fate of the Jews to save the Danish Jews in October 1943.

My father served in the RAF and the Irish Army and he knew a lot of what was going on long before the camps were discovered -- it was maybe not something people were up in arms about in Ireland but people knew terrible things were being done. My aunts were in school in Paris and heard plenty; it was obviously more immediately important to the French what the Germans were doing than to the Irish but Irish people were conscious of small countries being overrun and especially Catholic countries like Poland. The details of the horrors of the east were probably not known to Irish people, but Dachau and the general hatred of Jews were known about.

I agree with ZZZenagain about the level of knowledge and also denial (you can't have denial without knowledge). Germans were anything but thick. They knew the war was going against them after Stalingrad -- the SS compiled reports on public opinion and everyone in power knew the population was feeling a sense of impending doom and questioning Nazi leadership. The propaganda was not being swallowed whole.

I agree too with your post of 12:49:30 (what is the best way to teach the salient lessons of the Holocaust?) I don't think it can be taught without reference to personal morality. The Third Reich attempted consciously to replace traditional morality (and even changed the meaning of words; see Himmler's use of the word 'decent') and replace it with a new brand of Nazi morality where the Third Reich was the highest value.

marriedinwhite · 11/11/2012 08:52

Thank you Mathanxiety

I was going to add that in 1937 my father was sent from Berlin to his aunt's in Hamburg; from there he came to the UK on Kinder Transport. His parents had intended to join him in Hamburg - they didn't. He arrived in England in 1939. His host family in the UK knew why he came; his school knew why he came; the organisers of Kinder Transport knew why he came; the British government knew why he came. He was 10 years old.

He died when my son was five. On my son's 10th birthday I looked at him peacefully sleeping in his bed living the safest, securest and happiest life a boy could have. On that day I realised how small and young and frail my father was to have been uprooted, to never see his parents again and by the age of 17 to know for sure he never would. His aunt survived. He escaped the true horrors but he never truly recovered. I never understood the reality of it for him until my own son was 10 years old and by then it was too late to tell him.

Animation · 11/11/2012 09:04

YANBU

The school should have waited till they were 15 years old. Certificates are given for a reason - and children's brains are developing at their own pace and don't need traumatising earlier than necessary with violent images.

Chandon · 11/11/2012 09:09

Fascinating posts, thanks.

It is an intersting part of being a parent, that you understand more about your own parents, isn't it? My mother was 8 during the winter of starvation in the Netherlands, and actually remembers hunger. I cannot begin to imagine not being able to feed my 8 year old.

The problem I have with Schindler's list is that it is now seen as a "documentary" instead of the Spielberg film it is, if that makes sense.

lionheart · 11/11/2012 09:45

The Sorrow and the Pity deals with that, Chandon. It is a truly harrowing documentary.

Yellowtip · 11/11/2012 09:55

married that's interesting about your own father. Mine had a similar escape, in broad terms. He rarely mentioned the war and I was too stupid as a young child to ask him. When I did finally say casually 'What happened to your father?', aged 10, he turned into the nearest room, closed the door and just cried.

My brother finally found out what happened in about 2005. I think my father would have preferred not to know.

Apart from a number of Polish idiosyncrasies he gave us a very normal childhood, though looking back I can see there was a shadow which was suppressed. That seems to have been the way; that those with this experience counted themselves as remarkably lucky and just got on with, and made the best of, what life had dealt.

Adversecamber · 11/11/2012 11:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yellowtip · 11/11/2012 12:31

A very bright boy who went to Colchester Royal Grammar cleans my windows. He and his brother suffer badly from depression. And his extraordinarily gifted nephew suffered from very bad anorexia for years. His mother found her father hanging in the kitchen during the war, as the Germans surrounded their house. He only discovered this recently as his mother hitherto had never spoken of her experiences during the war.

It's a well recognised phenomenon that many survivors were silent, including in their own homes. How that affected the second generation I really don't know. The silence is utterly understandable for that generation but I think there's any reason now to shelter children aged 13 or 14 particularly, given the distance in time. I agree it's unhelpful and I think perhaps as parents or teachers there's also a duty to talk.

Yellowtip · 11/11/2012 12:32

I think there's no reason - slip.