Re Nursery. And WWYD

[catgirl1976]

DS is 11.5 months. He goes to nursery 2 days a week and has done since he was 4 months old.

He has always fought sleep. Until 9 months he was demand fed, we co-slept and he went to bed when we did. At 9 months we moved him to his own cot, then his own room and gradually, through a lot of hard work got him into a routine.

His routine is now

Wakes between 5:30 and 6:30
Porridge and bottle
Snack around 9am (usually crumpets or toast and another bottle)
Nap around 9:30am, for 1.5 - 2 hours
Lunch about 12:30 / 1pm
Nap around 3pm for about an hour
Bottle at 4pm
Dinner at 6:30
Bath at 7ish till about 7:30
Bottle and wind down, story etc
Bed at 8pm

We have worked hard to get him in to this routine.

Nursery just seem to be unable to follow anything like it.

We had an issue with them not giving him his 4pm bottle and he was a wreck when we got him home. This has been resolved.

But we have had an on-going issue with his naps. He gets his morning one, but it is much later - anywhere between 10am and 11:30am. He never seems to sleep for more than 50 minutes, sometimes as little as 20 mins. He often doesn't get his afternoon nap, or if he does it's 20 / 30 minutes again.

We have raised this and they promise to sort it.

Today I pick him up and they say "oh he didn't sleep well today. he had his morning nap, but he was wide awake this afternoon so he didn't get his afternoon one".

When I look at his diary he has had from 10:45 to 11:35.

All day. 50 minutes. He isn't one yet.

He was screaming during dinner as he was too tired to eat but I could tell he was hungry. He then fell asleep in my arms at 6:55 and is now sparked out. I expect he will wake in the night hungry as he couldn't eat much and no doubt I will be up at 4:30 / 5am.

It's a great nursery in all other respects, but AIBU to think this is nowhere near enough sleep for an 11.5 month old.

What do I do? If I move him it's upheaval for him and who is to say it will be any better elsewhere. I keep raising it but they say "Oh he just wouldn't go down"

He does fight sleep, but we persereve. It often takes 30 mins to get him off and can take more but he needs sleep, even if he doesn't want to.

I suppose they just don't have the staff to spend 30 mins getting him down, but he is a mess on 50 minutes out of 13 hours.

I just don't know what to do.

We had an issue

[nannyl]

it is unreasonable to expect a nursery to do that....

if he wont sleep for them they cant risk him waking the others

I suggest you get a nanny.... it is perfectly reasonable to expect a nanny to follow his routine, and i expect being in his own cot in his own cot will help

i agree less than 1 hours sleep for a 9m old is not nearly enough, but hopefully as he gets older it will get better.

having read your 1927 post i do agree that the nusery should have tried to put him down. YANBU to expect them to try

[corinthian]

Babies don't sleep anywhere near as well at nursery as at home from my experience - I just learned to accept that it was part of the deal to a certain extent. If it is just two days a week and I was otherwise happy with he nursery and staff, I'd do as early a bedtime as possible those days, skip bath etc and just cope with the grumpiness as best you can. And make sure the day after a nursery day is chilled out with plenty of chance to nap and catch up on sleep. It's not deal but I doubt another nursery would be better, unless e.g they have a separate sleep room and yours doesn't.

I think you can expect nursery staff to try for naps at particular times and follow any pre-nap routine you have at home, but they can't actually makes little ones sleep or stop them waking up early alas.

Also he'll probably be switching to a single nap relatively soon, which makes life easier. This period should be relatively short-lived.

[catgirl1976]

I accept I am BU to magically expect them to get him to sleep / leave other babies rocking in the corner on their own whilst they attend to the needs of my PFB. Thank you all for the perspective

I will raise with them, nicely, that he was a wreck when we got him home and ask them that they try, whilst letting them know I understand if he won't go down fairly quickly they are not wizards and they have other children to look after.

I suppose I have been naive in thinking that they would stick to a routine like they said when he is so difficult to get off to sleep.

It's good to know this will resolve itself in time.

I don't want a nanny as I like him mixing with other children, plus DH works from home and I think would find it a bit odd.

If anyone knows what I am doing wrong in that it takes 30 minutes to get him down or has any tips, I would be greatful.

[procrastinor]

Have you considered a CM? Now I know I'm pretty biased as I send my ds to one. But it does allow for more individualised routines. I think that it will be difficult for the nursery to fit in around your routine that much but perhaps a CM would be able to. My DS was held till he fell asleep as it was the only way he would go to sleep.

[Sirzy]

Why would they try to get a wide awake baby to sleep? What is the point in that?

They can't leave a wide awake baby in a cot in the room with other sleeping babies as it would disturb them. They can't have a member of staff spending half an hour getting him to sleep.

You need to accept that on nursery days his routine will be different. DS dropped naps at nursery 6 months before he dropped them at home. Even now at nearly 3 he goes to bed at least half an hour earlier on nursery days than none nursery days because it tires him out more.

[Jomato]

I share your pain, my 9 month old has had 25 mins sleep at nursery today. She also needs a lot of encouragement to nap and I think there is just too much going on at nursery. My attitude is that there's not much I can do and that I've just got to cope with the very grumpy baby I have by 5pm. Keep encouraging them to persevere but he might just never sleep well in that environment.

[catgirl1976]

Thanks Jomato :)

It sounds then, like my problem / mistake is trying to keep him to the same routine and times on nursery days and what I should do is accept he will more tired on these days and move his routine forward to accomodate. Ok - that's helpful, thank you.

Procrastinator - as the nursery only has a small amount of babies and I am otherwise happy with them I've not really considered a CM. I don't really get the difference, other than they are in their own home. Is there more to it?

[Megatron]

Regardless what they say do you really expect them to follow such a strict routine? Really?

There are other children to cater for too, not just one and being at nursery is so completely different from being at home. The noise is different, the atmosphere is different, there's more to distract them.

I honestly think that the only way you can impose this routine without diverting from it at all is to do it at home with a nanny.

[catkind]

I'd ask for a meeting with his keyworker, sit down and discuss what they're trying exactly, what else they might do, alternative solutions. Could they rock him in a pushchair instead of using a cot for example? Or might it help to take a blanket in from home?
It could be something different works better in the nursery environment. e.g. my son wouldn't do his usual 2 hour nap at nursery, but fell back into two shorter ones - cos that's what most of the other babies were doing, and he wanted to be awake when they were; also it fitted better round their mealtimes.
In theory they were happy to follow his own routine, in practice it worked better for him to follow theirs.

[procrastinor]

Not much different. There's usually less babies so can have more one-to-one time but can still have bunches of other children around throughout the day so they have that added stimulation. I preferred it because it gave me the reassurance that DS was having a bit more home like environment but still had other children around. Also a CM can be more flexible around routines - the CM I used when DS was a baby only had one other baby but children around for the day as well. I just felt a bit more comfortable with it (but each person is different).

[catgirl1976]

I guess it sounds like I am BU. And need to more flexible.

I will speak to them about trying though. I think that's fair.

I'm not really rigid about other stuff. Like, they do lunch at 11:30 which seems really early to me but it doesn't bother me.

[LaCiccolina]

Sorry but I really think you are bu and continuing to over react. I see why but you need to chill about it a bit.

The kids are excited by being away from home, and playing. They do behave differently at nursery a bit than at home. They all start off not sleeping or eating or crying but all do usually at about 12wks in at most have started to settle properly and accept that what happens at the nursery happens there and what happens at home happens at home. Has your mil put him to bed for example? Bet she did it in 15 mins. Wont be because shes any better than u, just that shes different.

My dd has been exactly the same. Went to nursery at a year. Didnt really sleep at first for weeks then got the hang of it and now happily has 2 hrs if she wants it.

You just need to relax a bit and accept a bit of grumpiness on coming home. How happy are you when you first walk through the door? Takes me a bit of time to adjust, dunno why dd should be different? Smile, honestly, it does help and it does improve over time.

[chandellina]

I think you and the nursery should try moving him to one long nap after lunch. He will be tired and should stay asleep. I'd also try moving bed time half an hour earlier. For what it's worth, my 11 month old wakes at 8am, sometimes has a quick nap at 1030, then back down after lunch for two hours. She's tucked up by 730pm.

[Glittertwins]

I just went with having 2 routines, one for home and one for nursery. DD never napped at nursery at that age, she was too nosey and in to everything whereas DS loved his cot. Nursery meal times were always far earlier than we ever had at home too.
Once they moved into the first toddler room, they both followed the after lunch nap time.

[LaCiccolina]

They do lunch at 11:30 to fit in clearing up and getting ready for nap time, probably at around 12pm-12:30 isn and then will be "quiet time" /sleep time till around 2ish.

They do have a routine, no idea why they arent advertising it. You have to if you are to fit in breakfast, snacks, regular nappy changes, bottles, meals, sleeps and play times.

[Shelby2010]

If he has been there for 6 months he must have previously been having more sleep? It sounds like he may be in that awkward transition between 1 & 2 naps, he may actually have more sleep if they just put him down for one long nap after lunch. DD adopted this pattern when she started nursery at a year old even though she still had 2 naps at home. And yes, she was knackered when she got home - and most days she still is. All that stimulation & running about!

[Jomato]

I keep encouraging them to try and hope that one day magically it will sort itself out! Keep positive and remember that at some point they will need a bit less sleep.

[catgirl1976]

Yes.....my DM can get him off to sleep in 5 minutes flat, although she doesn't appear to do anything different. He has been there since 4 months old so it's not a settling in thing.

Chandellina - that routine sounds good. I will try an earlier bedtime as I actually think 8pm is a bit late. It's DH's idea, the 8pm thing.

[dancemom]

this was me 6 years ago.

i even went into the nursery and spent 2 days there trying to get my dd to sleep (yes PFB!) as per my routine.

the nursery staff smiled sweetly as i tried to get dd to sleep while she bounced in her cot and watched what was going on in the rest of the nursery.

i know they laughed when i eventually gave up and accepted she wasnt going to nap like she did at home.

Lesson learnt there!

[milkjetmum]

We had a lot of trouble with DDs sleep. She is 2 now but started nursery age 1. In prep for starting nursery we asked their schedule and worked to get her naps to fit with nursery schedule.

I think following your schedule is reasonable at 4mo but not at age 1. Maybe the way to approach it is to discuss the typical day schedule with your keyworker and work on mirroring that routine on your days at home?

Also will your DS move out of the baby room and into an older room soon? Worth thinking about whether he will need to adjust to sleeping on a mat with other children around rather than cot before long.

[milkjetmum]

We had a lot of trouble with DDs sleep. She is 2 now but started nursery age 1. In prep for starting nursery we asked their schedule and worked to get her naps to fit with nursery schedule.

I think following your schedule is reasonable at 4mo but not at age 1. Maybe the way to approach it is to discuss the typical day schedule with your keyworker and work on mirroring that routine on your days at home?

Also will your DS move out of the baby room and into an older room soon? Worth thinking about whether he will need to adjust to sleeping on a mat with other children around rather than cot before long.

[Shelby2010]

And definitely a 7pm bedtime on nursery days!

[HecatePropylaea]

My sister was like your mum, cat. As soon as mine were in her arms they were fast asleep. I don't know how she did it.

I suspect she coated her sleeves with chloroform

[catgirl1976]

That's a really good point Milkjet - he will be moving to the toddler room soon and I have no idea what the "normal" routine is in there. I will find out and see if we can move his routine to be more like theirs.

Dancemom - I was considering doing that at one point