Re Nursery. And WWYD

[catgirl1976]

DS is 11.5 months. He goes to nursery 2 days a week and has done since he was 4 months old.

He has always fought sleep. Until 9 months he was demand fed, we co-slept and he went to bed when we did. At 9 months we moved him to his own cot, then his own room and gradually, through a lot of hard work got him into a routine.

His routine is now

Wakes between 5:30 and 6:30
Porridge and bottle
Snack around 9am (usually crumpets or toast and another bottle)
Nap around 9:30am, for 1.5 - 2 hours
Lunch about 12:30 / 1pm
Nap around 3pm for about an hour
Bottle at 4pm
Dinner at 6:30
Bath at 7ish till about 7:30
Bottle and wind down, story etc
Bed at 8pm

We have worked hard to get him in to this routine.

Nursery just seem to be unable to follow anything like it.

We had an issue with them not giving him his 4pm bottle and he was a wreck when we got him home. This has been resolved.

But we have had an on-going issue with his naps. He gets his morning one, but it is much later - anywhere between 10am and 11:30am. He never seems to sleep for more than 50 minutes, sometimes as little as 20 mins. He often doesn't get his afternoon nap, or if he does it's 20 / 30 minutes again.

We have raised this and they promise to sort it.

Today I pick him up and they say "oh he didn't sleep well today. he had his morning nap, but he was wide awake this afternoon so he didn't get his afternoon one".

When I look at his diary he has had from 10:45 to 11:35.

All day. 50 minutes. He isn't one yet.

He was screaming during dinner as he was too tired to eat but I could tell he was hungry. He then fell asleep in my arms at 6:55 and is now sparked out. I expect he will wake in the night hungry as he couldn't eat much and no doubt I will be up at 4:30 / 5am.

It's a great nursery in all other respects, but AIBU to think this is nowhere near enough sleep for an 11.5 month old.

What do I do? If I move him it's upheaval for him and who is to say it will be any better elsewhere. I keep raising it but they say "Oh he just wouldn't go down"

He does fight sleep, but we persereve. It often takes 30 mins to get him off and can take more but he needs sleep, even if he doesn't want to.

I suppose they just don't have the staff to spend 30 mins getting him down, but he is a mess on 50 minutes out of 13 hours.

I just don't know what to do.

We had an issue

[catgirl1976]

I look at myself like that all the time

I am a bit useless to be fair! :)

[ChippingInLovesAutumn]

Catgirl - I love your ability to look at yourself and go 'WTF was I thinking and who let me do this??' You will be just fine!!

[moogstera1]

meant to add, if you don't really know about CM's give me a pm and I'll run you through it ( we're basically more like nannies but with the advantage of having all the mess in our own homes!)

[moogstera1]

Childminders are normally only allowed one baby under the age of 12 months, and only 3 in total under 5 years so would find it much easier to keep your lo in their routine.
Even when out and about at playgroups etc. my baby mindees always get a good sleep as they will sleep in the pram in a quiet corner if needs be; they're not in a noisy room full of babies all the time!

[MidniteScribbler]

What is this "routine" that you all speak of???

[Athrawes]

I had the same with mine. In the end I moved him to an in-home childminder who only has 2 under 2's at a time (four in total) to deal with and so had the time to cuddle, settle, be firm but not neglectful. It wasn't a criticism of the nursery, just didn't suit my child and I was stressed knowing that he wasn't happy because he was unroutined and tired. They did try, but it didn't work out. He moved to a childminder at 11 months old, and is now nearly 2 and a half. He is with her 42 hrs week and and still has 1.5 hrs nap at lunchtime. If he doesn't nap he will at least have quiet time in his cot at her house, where he sits and chats to himself and reads his books. Personally I think childminders, when they are good, are marvelous because they have time to respond to individuals.

[saintlyjimjams]

I had two babies who never really slept in the day (just short cat naps). It was an utter PITA, but there you go, that's the way they were. One of them would sleep in the afternoon if I shoved him on my back and staggered around with him but you can't really expect a nursery to do that.

Whatever a nursery's ethos, the reality is still that they have a whole group of children and so they can't spend 30 mins getting a child off to sleep (and what do you do exactly to force someone to sleep - carrying ds3 worked but you can't expect a nursery to do that).

When mine went to nursery I just accepted they might not sleep tbh, and put them in bed earlier.

[PurpleCrazyHorse]

We use a CM and the benefit is that she only has one little baby at a time, so although there's other kids there, maybe a toddler or two with our CM during the day, she was able to focus on DD a bit more for nap times. Plus she took DD out in the buggy for school pickups etc, so DD slept in the buggy too. DD would never just fall asleep in a cot, even at home until she was 2yo, so our CM was able to rock her gently (in her arms or in the buggy), or time a walk to the park (with DD in the buggy) at just the right time.

The environment was a bit quieter too as she does do a post-lunch quiet time so it encourages DD to sleep (or now, to just chill a bit). Clearly if there's just a couple of other children + DD, it's going to be quieter than a big nursery.

I would however, expect a nursery to try to get your DS to sleep but they clearly aren't going to be able to dedicate 30mins just to him, as there's bound to be other children who also need a hand too. I think you probably need to tweak your evening post nursery and possibly (as others have suggested) try a longer afternoon nap on nursery days.

[trinitybleu]

My DD never slept as well at Nursery but they did spend time getting her to sleep. We chose a Nursery with 5 places in the Baby Room and so they could dedicate the time. At that age, she was on one sleep of about 1.5 hours, after lunch, and would take at least 45 mins of rocking/ walking in buggy before she dropped off. If Nursery can't do that (having spoken to the Manager), I'd find somewhere that did.

FYI - by the time she was 2, she hardly napped at all but if she needed it one of the staff would sit beside her sleep mat and stroke her face / hair until she dropped off. I didn't!

[katiecubs]

YANU sorry.

It's not unusual that babies don't sleep as well at nursery - there is too much going on and other babies/ noises around to wake them up.

I would drop him down to one nap per day (pretty common around 1 yrs old anyway and from the sounds of it he is not tired enough for 2 anyway - babbling rolling for 30 mins etc) and put him to bed earlier! 8 is way too late is he gets up from 5.30.

[teaparties]

A friend had the same problem - she talked it through with her DS' keyworker (how although he was fine at nursery he was a mess when he got home/ they weren't able to enjoy any time together because he was falling asleep in his dinner/ night time sleep was affected) and said that although she was really pleased with how he was settling in at nursery she was really worrying about his sleep.
They've since worked to adapt his home routine so it fits in with nursery (ie. he has 2 short naps am rather than one long and pm is 1.5 rather than 2) I think sometimes it is worth flagging up just how much the baby is being affected, but doesn't have to be made into a massive deal just something to be worked on together.

[catgirl1976]

This thread has been great

So much good advice!

Now, please could one of you move in with me and tell me what to do all the rest of the time :) I still can't get over the fact that I have actually been entrusted with raising a child. I have no idea who sanctioned such a clearly foolish plan.

I honest to god spent most of my pregnancy looking for a book that told me exactly what to do, like a step by step guide or an instruction manual. I was most perturbed when I found there was no such thing!

Thank god for MN though........... lots of advice and the occasional, much needed slap to give you your perspective back

Thank you :)

[midseasonsale]

I think you need to know that they have at least put him in the cot and allowed him time to nod off twice a day.

[Runningblue]

Op, I can really understand you stressing over this, and you've had bags of good ideas and feedback.
But, do just consider that
1 babies do their nursery day thing, and their home thing. Both good and bad. For example at nursery when he had naps, after the age of one when he went into the toddler room, my DS used to be the first to walk over to his sleeping mat and lie down and go to sleep. At home he was a little blighter who wouldn't settle for a nap for love nor money.
2 you have a very carefully honed routine at home, that you hold dear, for sanity and 'best results' for your day with DS. However unfortunately all routines change IME as the baby develops and has different needs. He might be beginning to demonstrate he needs one longer nap after lunch, rather than two naps. This does happen around a year old. If a baby is 'between nap needs' it can bizarrely make him not great at napping full stop.
You might find this is coming out at nursery, but actually may be a sign that requirements for sleep are on the change.

I don't think you are bu, but equally use the expertise of the nursery and their advice on what they think would help with DS. For this stage in DS's life their ideas might inform the next steps in his developing routine.
Good luck

[3LittleHens]

YANBU
He is getting far too little sleep.
I do sympathise though - my little boy could sleep for England and if he didn't get enough sleep he was a nightmare.
I would speak to them again very firmly but kindly, afterall you chose the nursery partly based on their understanding/flexibility on this issue.
In the meantime could you not get him to bed a lot earlier than 8pm on nursery days - say 6pm, particularly as he is getting such little sleep on these days?

[midseasonsale]

Maybe you could come in and show them how to put him down and go through what he does (roll around etc)

[midseasonsale]

Is there an easy way of getting him off without leaving the others? ie) putting him in a buggy in the nursery room and rocking him? The leaving him asleep in the corner.

You need to tell them that he is having an awful time at home after his days in nursery due to lack of sleep. Go into detail about what happens.

Alternatively accept that things go pear shaped there and get him into bed by 6.30pm, having had tea much earlier.

[Climbingpenguin]

with children it is generally about their total sleep in 24 hours rather than their naps.

Then again mine were/are massive fans of 30 min naps. DS often gets 50 mins total and I've learnt to make do while cursing that baby number two was supposed to be the sleeper

I think it is worth a talk at nursery, at the end of the day they did state they would fit into your babies routine and hopefully find somewhere in the middle. Good luck

[catgirl1976]

Ivor thank you for that! It is so nice to know it's not just me...........I can't see the wood for the trees sometimes

Just told DH the advice and he was also like "Oh yeah.....................of course. That makes sense. Why didn't we think of that before...."

There is much face palming going on in this house tonight :)

[greeneyed]

oh and we adjusted our home routine to nursery's for meal times and sleeps - good luck with this one

[greeneyed]

I don't think you are being unreasonable if they have said they will do something and are not doing it (or attempting to), however they are definitely over promising and should have managed your expectations better - suggest a sit down meeting with key walker to talk about what you both think might be achievable. At my sons nursery he had to follow their routine but actually he went down better there than at home, I think because he saw all the other children going to sleep at the same time.

[IvorHughJackolantern]

Getting him into the nursery routine sounds sensible. And really bloody obvious now

Thank you............my brain used to work. I'm sure it did

It took my mum suggesting this to me after 6 bloody months of me weeping down the phone at her that he wouldn't settle into his routine after his nursery days, didn't want tea when I was offering it but was obviously hungry etc. We switched, I gave him his lunch and tea at the ridiculously early hours the nursery do, and he was loads happier. As was I.

I used to have a working brain too

Naps will, I'm sure, work themselves out. DS was doing same as yours and still doesn't nap much on nursery days though can do a good 2 hours at home. But it doesn't distress him anymore.

[EscapeInTheCity]

sorry lots of xpost there.
Too fast moving for me lol.

[EscapeInTheCity]

Agree re sleeping on a mat. From 18 months. both my dcs did that. They just had one nap just after lunch. It would be better for him to be used to that otherwise he won't have any sleep at all during the day.

Personally, I would try and work something out where I know he is going to get the sleep he needs, even it means changing again my routine at home. My experience with nursery is that they are very good at putting all the dcs down at the same time and for all the babies to sleep at the same time. It's working because they have a strong routine that everyone is following.

However, I also have had a child who never slept well at nursery (the slightest noise would wake him up, same problem at home). So might want to check if there isn't something like this happening too. An overtired child is never good.

[catgirl1976]

SamSmalaidh - he really does seem to enjoy being with other babies. He has a "friend" who he chases around with and he seems really fascinated by other babies - he laughs when he sees them etc and he doesn't get that at home.

He really does seem to enjoy having some other baby company