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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Question for non-bilingual spouses of bilingual partners and in-laws

39 replies

ElectricMonk · 31/10/2012 12:35

Just to warn you in advance, this is a long OP because I don't want to drip-feed, and I know how debates about bilingual families often go down on this forum. I do not resent my partner's heritage, I have tried my best to fit in with his family's way of doing things and it is still making me and my dh very frustrated/unhappy. So, I would be grateful for your advice on the following...

My dh is English with foreign heritage, and his family speak a mixture of English and the foreign language when they are together. Neither he nor his siblings have a particularly good grasp of the foreign language - their vocabulary stopped developing when they were about 10, and they haven't bothered to learn more as the language is very difficult, only spoken in one country, and they don't see very much of their relatives from over there. He and his dad (the foreign parent) generally speak the foreign language when they are together, and his dad tries to insist that they speak it on the phone and via e-mail as well. Fil does speak excellent English (it's his job), whereas dh admits that he is far from fluent in the foreign language.

Over the course of the last few years, this has caused a number of problems. Most importantly, my dh and his dad don't get on particularly smoothly at the best of times and trying to discuss difficult adult issues with a child's vocabulary means that they rarely get any closer to a resolution. It also leads to many misunderstandings, which are often only realised when one party has been stressed and upset about the situation for quite some time. There is also the problem that my dh feels that he is growing away from his parents, as he doesn't see them very often and spends all his time on the phone trying to translate the bare bones of what he is doing with his days (in a very specialised working environment) rather than really talking to them. He always looks a bit sad and deflated when he has finished a phone conversation, and says that it is for the reasons above.

I also have problems as a result of his dad's insistence on speaking the foreign language. They speak it at home whenever I am not part of the conversation (even when I am in earshot), which makes me uncomfortable and also leads to situations where I miss important pieces of information. For example, my fil will tell my dh that we are all going out at X o'clock (in my hearing), dh won't realise that he has said it in a language I don't understand (because he's so used to speaking a patois of English/foreign language), I don't realise that I need to ask for a translation because I wasn't part of the conversation, and fil clearly assumes that dh will tell me later what has been said. Result: everybody else is ready to go at X o'clock and I am in the shower/on the phone to my folks/out for a walk. Other examples would be fil complaining about mess (not ours, but we are apparently expected to deal with it) to dh in their common language, dh makes a token effort to clean up after others and doesn't pass on the message to me, and fil gets annoyed with us. As a result, I'm always on edge when I am there and constantly have to ask what's going on.

Also, the whole family make passing comments to each other in their language while we are together and it feels very exclusionary. My fil has done it in front of me to dh on at least 2 occasions when I knew it was definitely about me (not ill-intended but still not very nice), and mil even made comments to her son about a conversation she was simultaneously having with my mother at a recent birthday dinner. We don't see each other very often, and it still happens every time.

We have tried to compromise on this in order to minimise the problems. I have tried to learn their language and can string together a few phrases but it is just too difficult for me to learn (there is only one national language which is more complex, according to fil), and constantly badger dh for updates on what is going on when we're there. I also take care to give them 2-3 hours to themselves each evening when we visit, so they do have lots of time to speak their common language together without me there. Dh has asked them in the past to speak to him in English on the phone and by e-mail to sort out his communication issues, and refuses to respond to them in their common language if I'm around. However, they continue to do things "their way" when we visit, and dh's request to speak only in English when communicating by phone/e-mail has been taken as a "punishment" and an "aggressive" stance by all of his family even though he did explain why at the time.

So, AIBU to think that they should respect dh's wishes to speak to him in English on the phone, by e-mail and when we are visiting them (if I am around)?

OP posts:
spoonsspoonsspoons · 31/10/2012 15:20

I sympathise on the learning a language. My oh is danish and i find that really difficult despite finding other languages reasonably straightforward.

At family gatherings it's a balancing act between feeling included, getting some exposure to Danish and not feeling guilty that 10+ people are having to speak English because one dunce can't learn danish

I do miss out sometimes on arrangements being made because of communication issues but it's not through malice

ElectricMonk · 31/10/2012 15:20

Inertia - yes dh and I both find FIL quite controlling and it does cause lots of problems, which is a shame because he's lovely to be around when he's happy. I was really surprised by how much offense dh's discussion with him about languages caused - dh explained in a very clear and (IMO) diplomatic way, but the whole family is really upset about it. I'm not sure how much of the upset is down to FIL, of course...

It's so nice to hear from people who understand what it's like to struggle with this and have managed to find an acceptable solution, it gives me hope! I've been trying for such a long time to embrace my dh's culture, and it really helps to be told that being uncomfortable with the way things are doesn't make me ignorant/intolerant/precious/domineering (which is the impression I get from their responses).

OP posts:
ElectricMonk · 31/10/2012 15:28

Wow, even more replies - thank you so much, I will read later and respond but I must be off to work now! I really appreciate this, all of the advice and different perspectives really helps and I am taking it all in :).

OP posts:
DontmindifIdo · 31/10/2012 15:53

Actually, if they don't like it when your DH translates everything, well tough - they are being rude!!! If they don't like your DH explaining what's going on, they have a choice, they could speak in English, or even perhaps they could offer to teach you. It's controlling to want to be in charge of the level of information you have even if you are in the room.

There's another point here. FIL and MIL's choices in how they raised their DCs have lead to this situation with the language. They chose to move to another country, and then in that country, they chose to not push their DCs as children to be fluent in their heritage language. They can't complain now that their adult DCs don't have a good grasp of the language when they didn't put the effort/time in when your DH was a child to teach him and chose to raise/educate him in a different language. Your DH shouldn't feel guilty about not wanting to use a language he doesn't speak well from a country he's not lived in.

OneLittleToddlingTerror · 31/10/2012 16:11

DontmindifIdo I think you are a bit tough with the foreign language situation. Some languages are very hard to learn, especially if you are in a minority situation. I know from personal experience that Chinese is one of them. Auckland has a very large Chinese community. In some suburbs you can go to school where most of your classmates are chinese. But almost all can't read or write chinese. That limits your vocabulary significantly. (I was partially educated in Hong Kong so I can read at probably primary school children level). I have cousins who went to chinese schools for years in the weekend, and not learned the written language. If the OP's DH failed to learn his parents language well, it might not be via lack of trying from his parents part.

Also kids invariably find the minority language uncool. It's usually when we grow up that we regret about it.

fraktion · 31/10/2012 16:36

I can sort of sympathise because I remember when DHand I were first together I couldn't follow what his family were saying. It's unreasonable to expect them to change their habitual language, just as DH and I will switch to English to talk between ourselves in front of them, even though they speak English. Their family, their language. It probably feels bizarre and unnatural for them to switch away from the family language.

BUT

If messages are getting lost they need to more proactive about translating and addressing you in English. You don't speak their language, and not for want of trying it seems, and they need to work with that purely for practical reasons.

It's a tough balance between their habits and what is a large part of their identity and the logistical necessity of communicating.

DontmindifIdo · 31/10/2012 16:47

OneLittleToddlingTerror - I see what you mean, but I've met so many parents where English isn't their first language who've taken decisions that have lead to them raising their DCs in a particular way which means their DCs don't speak their parents' first language and then acted like it was a failing in their DCs, not a direct consequence of the parents' choices. (I have one friend who did point out to her parents that if they had wanted her to be just like a girl who'd been raised in the village they were raised in, then they should have stayed there and raised their children there.)

Absy · 31/10/2012 17:00

It does sound very tough OP, and you have my never ending pity. DH is French (but completely bilingual) and I'm (slowly) learning french and am hopefully getting there, but I still get how difficult it is. It used to really annoy me when we first got together and we were hanging out in France, and everyone would be speaking french the whole time (and I was the only non-French person, so it was reasonable) but you miss things around deciding on activities (like everyone would suddenly stand up, put on their coats and you're sitting there going "what the hell is this all about?"). I agree with the others that your DH should translate stuff for you.

Is there any way you could start listening to podcasts and stuff, just to get used to listening to the language in a non-active way? A lot of foreign radio stations are available online now, so when you're mucking about at home you can have it in and get used to tuning into the language, and maybe pick up a couple of words (e.g. when I was studying Russian at university you could get things like russkoeradio online, and a number of others).

As for your FIL insisting on speaking his language with your DH - I've had this with my DH as well, that he will speak to his sibling in French while the three of us are having a conversation, but for him it is because (and it's completely irrational but I get it) he's used to having a relationship with his sibling in their native language. It feels very false for him to speak to them in English (and likewise to me in French, which makes getting him to talk to me in French for practice purposes fun). I've found that now that I speak a bit more, that talking to DH does feel very bizarre and fake.

Absy · 31/10/2012 17:02

Oh, and a lot of DH's friends and family are convinced that I'm very quiet and reserved as I'm still getting used to speaking in French, so tend to just observe.

hahahahahaha - if only they knew

OneLittleToddlingTerror · 31/10/2012 17:10

DontmindifIdo your friend is right. A british born chinese will not behave the same as one that is raised in china. I'm painfully aware of this everytime I went to HK to visit family. The parents have to accept that their children, raised here in the UK, will be somewhat british. My DH family is from the UK, and he has similar cultural issues when he was growing up in NZ. His dad insisted he played soccer at school instead of rugby. They raised him to think of himself as English. And in fact it took him moving to this country to realise he's 100% kiwi. (But then it's easier for him to think of himself as 100% kiwi as he doesn't have a skin colour problem like I do).

I'm going off topic a bit here!

mummywithnosleep · 31/10/2012 17:29

Electric.

Sounds very difficult.

I do think this is very poor manners on behalf to your DP family.

I´m fluent (to medical translation level) in serval languages, and we live in a non native country so DD is being rasied as bilingual. DP is getting to a good degree of fluence in our host countries language, which I am already fluent in. HOwever, I have lots of friends from all over the world here and we speak in the common language, when with other people

OK; so for example.

Me (british) and FriendP (Polish) will speak in polish, when together

Me (britsh) friendP (polish) friendS(spanish) and FriendG(german) will speak in Spanish as it is common to all of us

However, Me, FriendP and FriendG will speak in French if all together as it is more fluent to all of us.

As you are giving the "family" plenty of "common language" time and space it is only far and reasonable that they convers in your presents to involve you in the conversation in English (Thats good manners) If you MIL for instance and you are having a very chilled out discussion it would be nice of you to try and speak in their language (with lots of I´m not sure how to say its, and MIL helpfully correcting / helping you)

But I do also DP is partly to blame, I he comes out with me and my friends and we are speaking in a non English language I translate for him / friends to involve all in the coversation (Its hard work for me, but I would HATE to be a spare part so I do it glady) when FIL comments about you to DP, he should pretty much instantly say DAD, that rude, Electric is right here and you shoudn´t say XXX (translated) into english, he should of course say this in english.

Like wise, DP needs to translate for you in any converstation where you are the spare part (tis only far)

Then having been fully involved in the coversation you can wonder off to read a book and let them have a "language" coversation.

Not quite sure of my point, other than it sounds like you have tried very hard and it about time DP and his Family met you half way.

pointyfangs · 31/10/2012 19:37

I do think your FIL and family are being very rude and controlling. Culture is important, but they are making no real effort to include you, despite being fluent in English.

In my family, I'm the bilingual one (English/Dutch) but my parents and the rest of my family would not dream of using language as a barrier to my DH. They speak English when we are around, I might have a conversation in Dutch with one of my parents whilst the other is speaking with DH in English, and we do not switch without translation. Good manners are not rocket science.

Flatbread · 31/10/2012 20:10

Hmm...don't know about this one. My dh and I are both from different cultures and English is a second language for both of us.

When we are together or with common friends, we speak English

When he is with his family/friends he speaks/phones/emails in his native tongue. I kinda tune out, as I have no intention of learning the language, and am happy to let him get on with it

When I am with family and friends, I speak in my native tongue. Dh sonetimes is curious and wants to learn, but realistically, he never really will. Most of the time he just switches off and asks me the gist when we are alone together

I think it is just fine. He has a private life in his own culture and language where I play a marginal role. And he is comfortable being mostly a silent observer when we are with my family and friends.

We stay in the same room and cuddle and share a cuppa but with the non-native speaker reading a book or surfing. Bit of a relief really, and best of both worlds. Being a part of a group but being able to switch off without it being rude Smile

Mumsyblouse · 01/11/2012 12:00

I think there's a big difference between friends, where you might all go to dinner together and speak the common language, and family where people often want to interact in their mother tongue or their family language.

I don't see this as the same at all, if we visit my husband's family, and every single one of them is from their country and speaks their language, why should some of them bash away in stilted English for hours just to please you. Some don't even speak English, my FIL for one.

You can't approach your in-laws with 'all speak English or you are rude', you are not the one who gets to set the language of a family. I don't think that was what the OP was saying anyway, but some of the replies are incredibly black and white about language (e.g. just learn it better- well, if 10 years of childhood learning plus speaking it constantly to the parents hasn't worked for the OP's parents, doesn't that suggest that being fluent enough to participate in a conversation isn't just a matter of effort/trying harder! It's incredibly time-consuming and difficult to get to the point you can really join in properly. you'd need a bit of immersion, visit a lot, language tuition, it's hard to learn a language!)

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