to have stopped this from happening?

[addictedtooverreacting]

Have namechanged for this.

My DF has always been big on discipline. We were spanked, belted etc., regularly for the smallest things.

All adults now so obviously this hasn't happened for many years.

My DSis has a 2.5 year old son and DF is quite harsh with him. He gets angry at him for playing too loudly etc. He has smacked him on the bum a couple of times, which has not gone down well but each time it was a family event and no one wanted to cause a scene. I felt awful, as though I had let DN down by not intervening.

Today as we were getting ready to leave, I asked DN to pack away his toys and he didn't. DF was in the room and told him sternly to put his toys away. When DN didn't do as he said DF stood him up and smacked his bum. I didn't say anything even though I was angry with him for doing it.

DN then sat down and told DF he would smack HIS bum.

My DF grabbed DN, threw him over his knee and started spanking him hard. I immediately threw my hand on top of DN and the second whack hit me instead of DN, who I tried to take away from DF. DF then yanked DN backwards and shoved me in the chest. I was furious and shaking and just kept saying you can't spank someone elses child without their permission. He started yelling at be for interfering and said it was the worst thing I could do because children need discipline and by going against him I was ruining everything.

I kept saying the same thing over and over, that you can't do that and he shoved me a few more times and told me to fuck off out of his house.

He's then been texting me since I got home telling me that because I don't have any children I don't know what I'm doing and I've fucked up my nephew by not letting him discipline him when he's being naughty. That I am always overreacting to everything (hence the NN) and I should stop causing trouble...

I know I'm probably not being unreasonable for stopping him spanking DN but he's making out like I've overreacted to the situation and am the sole cause of a big family blow out for what seems to be no big deal to him.

What else could I have done in that situation?

Sorry for the long post.

[Homebird8]

you all know now not to leave DF alone with kids

You can't even rely on supervising him with children. You did absolutely your best OP. Well done for springing into action. You DN already knows that his GF acted extremely and understands what you did for him.

You are aware, your DSis is aware, your DN is aware, your DF is aware... And still it might happen again, even with another adult supervising.

Your DF cannot be trusted.

[daffydowndilly]

Spanking for the smallest thing, is just the adult not managing to control their temper and in that case being abusive towards the child. It is bullying tactics. It probably gives them and outlet for adrenaline. It is not on.

I would have done exactly the same as you, I would voice my concerns loudly about the situation when asked, and I would tell my father that if his temper was so badly controlled he had to hit/shove/scream at me as an adult trying to intervene that I would not be back in his house until he had been to some anger therapy. IF a child is smacked to teach them (and I do not condone hitting a child at all) it should only be done when the adult is calm and controlled, surely. And definitely not by anyone but a calm parent. Although I still cannot fathom hitting for not tidying toys fast enough, my god. That is seriously inappropriate.

[ecto]

Why is your sister allowing her child to be alone with this man?

I was brought up by a similar man and my DCs will be alone with him over my dead body.

[ToothbrushThief]

What a bully he sounds. If anyone hit my DC we would never see them again. My choice.

I think you'd be neglectful if you allowed this to continue. Sorry it's so difficult because it creates a family rift but I do think your DSis needs to stand firm and you need to refuse to apologise and make it clear you would do the same again

[Zombieminx]

Well done OP, you did the right thing.

What couthy and blackeyedsusan said, definitely.

Please don't allow his vile behaviour to be brushed under the carpet, it's very wrong and the authorities should be involved.

Of course your DF lost the plot at you - he's violent and controlling bully and instead of staying in the frightened weak position he beat put you into as a child, you stood up to him and he didn't like it. Let's all assume that if the OP's mum was too frightened to stop him beating her own children that she won't stop the pattern of behaviour continuing with the GC

You did a brave thing to stand up and stop the cycle of violent abuse affecting the next generation.

I hope you and your family have a nice Christmas ... One that doesn't involve treading on eggshells around this violent thug who thinks beating toddlers is ok. You all deserve better than that, and it's time to start your next chapter.

Here is the NSPCC page on physical abuse, it has contact details too so that you can report a concern

[LadyMargolotta]

Sorry addictedtooverreacting I didn't see your post about not being able to have children.

[HoratiaWinwood]

What a hateful, hateful man. Rubbing in your childlessness to excuse his hateful, abusive, drunken behaviour.

It's tricky for you because you grew up thinking it was normal. Well let me be very clear: the "normal" discipline you describe of your childhood in your OP is now explicitly illegal. That's how unreasonable and un-normal it is.

There is no call for a grandparent to smack a child even once if the child's parents are in the building. (If grandparent is in charge because parents are absent then that's up to the family to agree together.) There is no call ever to put a two-year-old over one's knee for a spanking. The very thought is making me feel sick.

OP, you did a very good thing and were extremely brave. There was nothing else you could do except step in sooner, which I see you felt unable to do.

My PILs and FIL in particular are believers in smacking. We have made it clear to them that if they hit our children they will not spend time with them. It is doable.

Well done and good luck. One good result of this is that DN will remember that you stood up for him, and that his Grandad isn't always right. "Grandad hit too hard" is heartbreaking.

[dysfunctionalme]

I think you were v brave and that in the future your family will look back on this as a turning point.

For you, your sister and your DN it will be the day that someone finally stood up to your DF, and no doubt for your DF it'll be the day that you "split the family" or similar. He is a bully and to blame you for his appalling violence is about as deep in denial as is possible.

Tbh I should think you could be waiting a v long time for an apology and, although it probably feels difficult, would urge you to stay true to yourself and not bow to his demands.

I know you consider that he is in many ways a good man but truly, good people don't lash out with violence, don't belittle and berate, don't send threatening and abusive texts etc etc

What sort of RL support do you have?

[Goldmandra]

You and your DSIS need to talk this through together and work out how you both want to move the situation forward. You must make sure that you will be presenting a united front.

Is your DSIS with your DN's father? If so he needs to be consulted too.

Your DSIS would be within her rights to say your DF cannot see his grandson again but you mention that you are a close family and maybe this won't be sustainable.

You need to discuss whether she is willing to take your DN there again and who will remain with him to ensure that your DF never raises his hand to his DGS again, EVER.

Once you have worked out together what approach is right for your DN and your family as a whole you need to present this to your DF. Do it early in the day so he won't have started drinking.

He needs to understand that his views on raising children are unimportant and so, for that matter, are yours. What matters is that he understands that your DSIS does not want her child to be subjected to any sort of corporal punishment at any time and he must agree to respect that in order to be allowed to spend time with him.

He also needs to understand that his actions last night were beyond corporal punishment. That was child abuse and as such was unlawful and he needs to know that if he ever attempts to repeat that behaviour you or your DSIS will call the police.

He'll probably be angry and aggressive in his response but that doesn't matter. leave him to think it over in his own time. He will realise that he has to choose between his desire to impose pain and fear on a child when he loses his temper and his need to be involved with his family.

It may help you to know that Early Years Practitioners are required by the terms of the EYFS to do everything in their power to prevent anyone involved with a child in their care from using corporal punishment. That's because it is harmful to children.

You did the right thing and you must continue to stand up for the rights of your DN and any future grandchildren.

Christmas as a family will not be much fun for anyone if you don't sort this out and your DN is expecting to be hit if he steps out of line. In fact I would go so far as to say that even if your DF were to apologise and undertake to keep his hands to himself, Christmas is not the time to test this out and you will not be celebrating it with him as a family this year.

[ICBINEG]

Just another person here to day you DF has caused the family rift by going against the wishes of the childs mother and also against the law of the land. What YOU did was to protect a child who needed your help.

If I had medals to give I would give you one!

Please continue to know that you were unquestionably in the right and NEVER back down and apologise for it.

[Dahlen]

Do you care if it causes a family rift? Quite frankly, I think you're family would be much happier without your abusive, violent father in it. Well done for standing up to him. Don't you dare let him make you feel that any residual bad feeling is your fault.

[WandaDoff]

You did the right thing.

It must have took a lot to stand up to him, well done.

[KenLeeeeeee]

You absolutely did the right thing. The very fact that your father responded to your intervention by shoving you and swearing at you shows that he was not "disciplining" your nephew at all, but being an aggressive bully. To follow that up with nasty text messages referring to you not being able to have children is just vile.

I hope your sister and nephew are ok too.

[thebody]

Babe, you havnt broken your family, it was broken allready but you were all pasting over the cracks.

Personally I would write to all your family members stating exactly what happened and the possible serious legal concequences ( as and police) involvement that his assault could bring. That might scare the crisp out if him. Also that unless he addresses his alcoholism or drink issues then you cannot be around him as he is a dangerous man.

Don't paper these cracks over, write to the whole family and get it out in the open.

If your dsis allows her child any where near this man again she is neglectful and if he lashes out again at her child he could be taken into care as she is wilfully exposing her child to violence. Tell her that and make sure she knows it.

For you, we'll its up to you chik but if he has allready lashed out at you then he could do it again.

[digerd]

It is usually a generation thing, when older men tell women they are over-reacting, and they know better than you and you are undermining their authority. The times my mother said to us " What till your father gets home!!" The man was always the disciplinarian. However, what ever my dad did to my defiant brother, I didn't see anything, it didn't work !! But when my dad called his 5-year old Grandson that he was a " little liar", for denying he had stolen some grapes when visiting friends, my sister-in-law, was so furious and upset, she wrote my dad a letter saying she would never see him again. My brother came down still, but my dad looked so shocked and upset, i felt sorry for him. He did not smack the child.

[thebody]

Oh and to add, to stand up to him took immense courage and bravery and as well as your dn remembering granddad hateful assault he will also remember aunty sticking up for him and stopping it.

I am curious, do you have a mom, does your dn have a dad? What do they think?

[schoolgovernor]

He used physical violence against you, not just your DN. So hopefully if you and your Dsis can agree a way forward, it will include letting him know what the conditions are for him seeing his grandchild again. I'd be sorely tempted to write to him jointly letting him know how things will be in the future. Including the fact that you will not hesitate to ring the police in a similar situation.

[brianbennettfan]

addicted, I am glad that you are receiving unequivocal support in this awful situation. Your father is a poor excuse for a man, and an even worse excuse for a father and grandfather. He is quite simply the sort of person who enjoys inflicting fear and physical pain on vulnerable children, and how much influence the drink has on this is debatable. It is appalling that he is now carrying forward his dreadful attitude onto the next generation. Whatever you decide to do now, you must never be prepared to take any iota of blame for any rift that may occur because of what has happened. And if there is any further attempt on your father's part to justify his vile behaviour, my response would be that you and your sister are perfectly prepared to ask both the Police and Social Services for their opinion on it.

Has anyone asked your DN how he feels about seeing his grandfather again? The answer to that question could tell you how you should proceed, at least in the short term. Good luck. My late father was the kind of guy who wouldn't harm the wings of a fly, but even I know that what you did was very brave.

[Sunnywithachanceofshowers]

You did brilliantly, addicted.

[redexpat]

If he left a mark on the child then that's illegal under English law. f you are in Wales, Scotland or N.Ireland he broke the law regardless. I'd get a local bobby to come and explain that tmes have change and that this behaviour is abusive and is treated as assault by the justice system.

[Sarahplane]

You did brilliantly and do not let him convince you that you are to blame for any family rift. You are absolutely in the right and dis totally the right thing. You and your dsis need to present a united front to make sure he is never able to do that to your dn again. Your father sounds like a vile bully.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

YADNBU - you did the right thing. Don't apologise, don't even contact him.

My father used to smack us as children, really hard too. We were terrified of him when we were younger, he was very frightening when he lost his temper. Smacking was what he was brought up with I suppose - and it was much more acceptable in the 70's.

But he has mellowed into a lovely older man now - he would never lay a finger on any of us now, and certainly not on his grandchildren.

I'm shocked that he thinks that good discipline for a 2yr old who won't tidy his toys is a smacking over his knee. And I'm even more shocked that he thinks it's ok to physically shove his adult daughter around. This is not normal behaviour - not at all.

[thebody]

How are you op?

[izzywizzyisbizzy]

nasty man, you are right, he is wrong, good for you!

[AdoraBell]

What else could you have done? Other than call the police when your father assulted you by shoving you, nothing. You did exactly the right thing and your DN will remember that you helped him. That will go a long way towards helping him deal with this as he grows up. YANBU, but I think you already know that.