to think that there are people who choose to live a life on benefits?

[autumnlights12]

the recent threads about George Osbourne made me wonder..
A high number of posters say that people don't choose to live like that, they stumble into it, hate it, what a miserable existence it is, nobody would ever choose it etc..
but if you have two or three children through choice, whilst at the same time having no job to provide for them, or if you turn down the job at the local factory (as I know someone who did) because it pays £7.50 an hour and a full time job there doesn't give you the same unemployment rights and benefits, isn't that choosing to live a life on benefits? Or being trapped on benefits? I'm not talking about people who can't work, disabled people, ill people, women dumped by feckless ex and left to fend for herself etc.. of course they should be protected.
I was watching 999 What's Your Emergency and I know that area. And I know people like that exist. And it's often a second, third generation who have never worked a day in their life, even during times when work was freely available. In the town I live, we have numerous Eastern European immigrants who all seem to be working, but mostly in low paid work the locals wont do
What say you?

I have never ever seen a post of Mumsnet which agrees with cutting benefit for disabled adults or children. So I can't see what there is to argue about.

postbellum i have 5 children with asd i think somethings are easyer depending on your postcode, sorry peachy i asumed from some of the advice i have seen you helping out other posters with that you probally had dla sorted for your dc and thats the only criteria required for hb and tc to help out.

i shouldnt assume (as my mother always tells me and i clearly dont listen) its the mother of all fuckups.

vivienne i saw one the other week by a poster whose rather prolific on these sorts of threads was a understatement.

I think anyone who relies heavily on benefits (of whatever type) are in for some hair raising times if this government stays in office. Nothing is safe.

crikey Peachy & Sock - wishing you both strength & patience. One AS child pushes me to the limits of my coping capacity.

I have seen people question the way that disability is defined

No, not everyone agrees on benefits to the disabled: on MN we have been told that we should go into workhouses, I have been told I am an example of why euthanasia would be good (by a relative)- there are very definitely those that do not agree.

We once had a bloke on here who argued that I should ahve tested for autism antenatally and aborted; even if I agreed (not a hope) I explained that there was no such test; he said I was wrong, I pointed out I had that month completed an MA module in the aetiology of ASD.... nope, still couldn't get through, like slamming my head against a brick wall!

I did up a big list once of how people who are carers could be helped back into work if they wanted, sent it to IDS and never even received a reply even though a few carer's Organisations felt it had merit. A lot of it though was longer term stuff, and I personally think that this Government recognises it is likely to be a short term one and thus doesn't are much about that. Allowing people to claim a carer's Payment whilst studying towards a new job that would work with their role, prioritising disabled childcare, having advisors trained to support Carers back into work, with eg advice about self employment. But despite being that all important ladder, it takes investment.

The Speaker's salary is £141,504 (including MP's salary of £65,738).
£80,320 (this figure comprises of MP's salary of £65,738 and additional salary for Committee Chairs of £14,582) from 1 April 2010.
Cabinet ministers receive a salary of £134,565 (including MP's salary of £65,738).
The Prime Minister has announced that he will be taking a salary of £142,500.
Every mp earns a min of £65,738 as of 1 April 2010 this does not include exspenses.
The average annual income of Uk residences is £25,800, or £2,150 per month
The average family household on benifits is £15,000 (this is with 3 children)

All the government is coming up with is we are SOOO in the red our taxes are being wasted on people who recieve benifits blah blah... but if you look into it further yourself you will see where a LOAD of TAXS PAYERS MONEY is being spent and it is certainly not going where they state, but the greedy "high powers" of this bloody country get to live it up still right? No cuts for them high wages paid for holidays all out of our pockets GREAT STUFF!

But as far as I can see no one on this thread is talking about payments to carers and the disabled. I am certainly not.

Peachy, yes I know childcare stops at 12, I have 2 older dc and one of them I could never have trusted on his own after school as he was a nightmare (aspergers).

I don't think anyone has a choice whether to live on benefits or not in purely the financial aspect. Its either worth it or not. But hey ho somebody will be along soon to tell me what a horrible person I am and how they have to pay for me blar de blar de blar.
Its funny really because nobody knows my circumstances, where I live, what sort of person I am, my qualifications which include a PGCE by the way. But the judges just have to see a very narrow bigoted view, I pity their lack of compassion.
Anyway I would like to say that before I was entitled to benefit I decided to become a sahm and struggled as did many. The more recent benefit has given my family a safety net and if it is taken away to provide support for more needy then I am happy. However, my principles are the same and I will remain a sahm as intended. I also spent many years in employment so shock horror paid tax.
But for the forseeable future it pays for me to be at home.

I'm sorry if you have had to listen to crap like that on here Peachy (and others). I think that views like that must be from a small minority, because I read many benefit threads and I haven't seen much of it.

Just in case you are unsure, I don't support any cuts to benefits for disabled people or carers

I think very few people probably set out to game the system, but I do think a culture of entitlement can encourage or reinforce what I would consider to be bad choices. I hear a lot of people talking about what the government owes them and their families. I think those expectations can put a lid on ambitions and a sense of personal responsibility, but I don't mean to suggest it's always easy to get a job much less a living wage.

I agree with you again Outraged, I'd rather all the money spent on people's "lifestyle choices" was spent on carers, undoubtedly. It's like emotional blackmail - I said it earlier - in the eyes of some people, not wanting to pay for mickey takers and fraudsters = wanting to make disabled people homeless.

No, no and thrice no. I'm not going to fall for it or feel guilty or to have words put in my mouth.

The problem is it's impossible to create a system that is simultaneously so encompassing that everyone who needs helps can access it and also so tightly controlled that noone can game the system or take advantage of it. It just can't be done.

So the question is: do you prefer that the system is tightened up so much that noone can take advantage of it, with the inevitable consequence that lots of people who desperately need help will not be able to get it, or do you prefer a system where those in need can access the basic help they require to avoid abject poverty and despair, with some unscrupulous people taking advantage and getting benefits they shouldn't have? I find it chilling to think that many people would prefer to allow the vulnerable to slip through the cracks just because they get so infuriated about the few who are profiting unfairly.

I think it's difficult but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I think over the last 15 -20 years we have seen a sea change in how the welfare state works and it has gone from being a safety net to being seen as a lifelong continuous entitlement but large swathes of the working population. The state is not there to redistribute wealth IMO. Otherswillno doubt disagree

There is absolutely no reason for it to be all or nothing, that (and for example somebody quoted morningpaper? what she said) is a convenient myth put about by denialists. First the denial, then the claim that you can't do anything about it because that would hurt too many people, so not a single fraudster or mickey-taker can be challenged. I don't believe it.

YANBU. I think there are people as you describe. In fact I know there are as some are related to me! There are generations of family who pass on an attitude of disrespect and disregard for education and work. I think the problem is complex. If you are bought up in that background how do you fight back? It's your normal. I was lucky. My parents were different and my brother and I reflect that. My cousins (mums sisters children) were not so lucky. I can't think of one of them that has worked. The girls are all pregnant before they finish school and fast forward 15 years, their daughters are the same. They are without exception poorly educated by the same state education that served me so well. One of my cousins was offered an opportunity to train as a hairdresser when she was 19. She turned it down on the basis it meant getting on a bus with a buggy everyday with her then 3 year old. It was free childcare. Meanwhile, I have worked for almost 7 years for virtually nothing just to cover childcare so we are better off now both DCs are at school. It's that mentality I cannot get.My aunt thought it was perfectly reasonable and couldnt see this was a great opportunity with the only sacrifice being a short bus journey with a buggy. The same cousin is now nearly 30 and has never worked a day in her life.Her daughter is at high school now and my cousin still says she can't work because she has a child. I dont have the answers for the swathes of disaffected. Is it the schools? How can my cousins have got so little out of school? I went to school two miles away and its like we were educated under a totally differen t system. Is it the parents? Almost certainly. My aunt never placed any importance on school or work unlike my mother. Is it the environment? These places are depressing.I can feel it when I visit, so can only imagine what its like to live there. I just dont know what the answer is. I honestly dont think my cousin will ever work. She says herself what can she offer. She's never worked so why take her over an equally inexperienced but cheaper 16 year old.

Its wasnt so long ago the country was up in arms about the MPs expenses. Yes remember that! By talking about all these benefit cuts we are detracting away from issues like that thus making the government happy.

but this thread isn't about people whose choices are taken away by disability.

You say that, outraged, but the very article you link to says that they are including people who are long-term sick and disabled in their 'never worked' figure, and also stay-at-home parents. So I wonder why you posted it.

By the way, Brycie, sorry to hear that your child is ill. I know it's awful having to leave them when all you want to do is look after them. If it helps at all, whenever I have to do it I think of something a wise colleague once said to me when I was fretting about it which is that you can't look after them and provide for them at the same time. Hope s/he is feeling better soon.

I shudder to think of disabled adults and children being left without financial support and unable to work. Horrible horrible

I do however personally know rather too many adults who could work and don't. There is an enormous difference in the two groups. The latter group do every thing they can do to manipulate a situation where they don't work. Sadly they often use disability as one of their ploys. I'm obviously making a personal judgement here and know that is dangerous but I very much believe it does happen. Some openly admit to it or compare notes of how to swing it. Others are I think in denial about their ability to work.

I think the people who have posted here with real issues preventing them working are let down by that second group.

I just hope the govt doesn't cull all benefits in an effort to force 2nd group to work. I do agree that too many people are struggling with long hours and low pay whilst their tax is going to benefits that are not always needed. I really hope the first group are protected

I linked to the article because someone repeatedly posed a question, so I googled it and that's what came up.

But it has nothing to do with people 'choosing to live on benefits' if you are talking about people who are long-term sick and disabled, because people do not choose to be long-term sick or disabled. So we still haven't got any actual figures for how many people choose to live on benefits ie never work a day in their lives through choice.

Yes, you are absolutely right, but that wasn't the question that was asked I don't think.

It's the question in the header!

I don't think that figure would ever be agreed. Choosing often requires a degree of fraud. You're hardly going to get accurate figures

In regards to Op question

YANBU. I know some!