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Original poster

To not understand how jimmy saville issue can be resolved?

55 replies

JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 20:45

Maybe I'm missing something here. I completely agree that the allegations against him are hideous if true. Question I'm finding difficult is how will the justice system decide if they are true or not, seeing as he is deceased?

Can you be tried on a court of law if you are deceased? Or will it forever be speculation? Can anyone ever prove beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty without him being here to answer the allegations?

I really do not want to offend anyone, I am just truely interested in the legalities of this scenario.

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KenLeeeeeee · 04/10/2012 20:46

I don't think you can be convicted posthumously. I think it's a horrible shame these allegations never came to light while he was alive, because he is neither able to defend himself or face justice if they prove to be true.

RedBlanket · 04/10/2012 20:48

He can't be charges and be convicted of anything because he's dead. The damage is done to his reputation.

I would like to see the people who colluded/facilitated the abuse brought to justice but I can't see how that can happen now.

Leena49 · 04/10/2012 20:51

He can't be tried. There will be hundreds. My DH told me tonight that two sisters from Leeds told him they had been abused by savile when they were children. They are now dead suicide! I said he should tell the police but will it do any good?

Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 20:55

That's my point, true or not... Surely it's too late? I feel for his family either way and I feel for his victims if its true but where is this going? Is it a battle between itv and bbc? Sorry to reduce something so horrific to that but that is the way it seems. Will we ever know the truth? It's a very complicated and seemingly damaging and futile situation?

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Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 20:59

For what it's worth, I feel it may be true but I'm well aware that what I feel or the general public feels is not enough to go on. Why the hell didn't these people speak out earlier if true and why were the allegations dropped in 2007? Either we have an incompetent police force or people haven't spoken up when they should of or people have gone out of their way to cover it or it's propaganda. We will never know? All options are ugly and vile and a sign that something is wrong somewhere.

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Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 21:00

Leena49, I guess you should tell the police anyway.

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santaisNOTathreat · 04/10/2012 21:03

i suppose it may give some closure for the victims, perhaps now they can try and put this horrible situation behind them.

Marne · 04/10/2012 21:07

I think the victoms just want people to know what he was realy like, it must have been upsetting when he died with everyone preaching and saying 'what a lovely man he was'. I feel it is true and i understand why they want people to know, i think they are very brave because i could not do what they are doing.

I am in a similar situation, a few weeks ago my ex died in a accident, i have had to listen to my my mum saying 'what a shame', 'poor lad' etc..etc.., i wish i was brave enough to tell her what he was really like, that he raped me several times. TBH i dont want to bring it up, he's gone now, he cant hurt anyone but it does piss me off when i hear people saying 'what a shame it is and how nice he was' it is tempting to tell people the truth.

Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 21:10

I completely see both sides. Very difficult. But what if it's not true? What of people are taking advantage of the fact he is dead? I'm not saying this is the case but a possibility?

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santaisNOTathreat · 04/10/2012 21:12

Marne :(

santaisNOTathreat · 04/10/2012 21:14

But what if it's not true?

READ THIS

i belive them

Marne · 04/10/2012 21:15

What have they got to gain though? do you think they are after money?

Do you know how hard it is to admit that a man has taken advantage of you? it took me years to admit it to myself let alone tell anyone.

I have a strong feeling it is true Sad, maybe they want closure? maybe it will help them move on? i don't know.

VeritableSmorgasbord · 04/10/2012 21:17

I suppose what people want is their abuse to be acknowledged, but more importantly the extent of it to be known and the culture to be understood.
From what people are saying, it's really clear that there were a lot of people involved directly and a lot of people who knew but could not speak out.
It will be a landmark if it can be proved that high-ranking BBC officials effectively condoned and assisted in the abuse of girls on their premises (condoned by not speaking out and assisted by providing a venue for the abuse).

santaisNOTathreat · 04/10/2012 21:22

JS07

But he was investigated in 2007 so it is nothing new

Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 21:26

I understand your viewpoints and I also have a tendency to believe it could be true but... Purely from devils advocate... How can you acknowledge something if there is no definitive proof it happened? Where do you draw the line? Do you need definitive proof to take something as true or can you base it on several witness statements? I agree, if it's true, lessons surely need to be learnt but if it's not? Surely this approach is unethical? Very confusing.

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Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 21:28

He was investigated but cleared? If he's guilty than that's a massive wrongdoing by the police?

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 04/10/2012 21:38

He wasn't cleared, it was decided there wasn't sufficient evidence. That means that they couldn't prove he did it.

I think that the weight of allegations coming out are increasingly persuasive. None of the victims will gain anything material from this and will have to go through some painful memories. I hope they get an acknowledgment of the wrong that was done to them.

It does make me wonder about celebrity culture and why people like Jimmy Savile, Bill Wyman and Roman Polanski seem to be allowed to operate by a different set of dubious rules.

monkeysbignuts · 04/10/2012 21:43

I agree with Kenleee Its such a shame he wasn't tried while alive.

Pedallleur · 04/10/2012 21:44

Times were different then. The press didn't get hold of these stories and Savile was always in the news raising money for the Royal Marines (he was awarded a green beret by them, one of only two civilians to receive that honour),Stoke Mandeville fundraising,running marathons etc and stuff like sex abuse was not mentioned. People didn't believe stories about Priests/Nuns etc until recently. He was in a position that as long as was careful he would be ok. The fact he had a caravan in the grounds of a care home should have been a clue but no-one questioned the 'eccentricity' of him. But he wasn't the only one. 2 of the Bay City Rollers (bass player and manager) were caught out. Probably no different today with boy-bands whose target audience is pubescent girls.

santaisNOTathreat · 04/10/2012 21:49

my persernal feeling is the victims didn't want to see JS to get away from it, so they waited till he died.

there will always be speculation, but the knowledge is out there and nobody can say oh well it never happend he was cleared

ThatVikRinA22 · 04/10/2012 21:58

i believe them.

i was talking to DH about this the other day and i asked why he thought it was just all emerging now.

his answer was that its only now that people are being asked about what happened.
once one person speaks up, you find a lot tend to come forward.
nothing will ever be proved and nothing will come of this particular allegation because he is dead - but i think there will be a lot more to come out yet.

i think there was a huge cover up from the 70;s, that went right to the very top of government.

mrsminerva · 04/10/2012 22:31

It's very sad when abuse is revealed after the death of the abuser, it gives no resolution to the abused person. The people who colluded with this vile man and his mate Paul Gadd should at the very least be ashamed, I would prefer it if they were prosecuted.

Original poster
JeuxDEnfants · 04/10/2012 22:42

I guess it's a lesson to anyone who thinks its ok not to raise suspicions. Victims also need more support and encouragement to come forward. I'm sad that there will be no resolution for anyone involved.
I also wonder what would have caused him to possibly do these things, maybe a cycle of abuse... It needs to stop and the only way is educating children about these things and listening to them. I hate the way abuse is passed down through generations. Unfortunately, it seems unstoppable so far :(

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cluelessnchaos · 04/10/2012 22:49

There's been a lot said about things being done in plain sight, he groped, kissed and even had sex in fairly public places. That has a double edged affect. Firstly witnesses hardly believe what they are witnessing and maybe because they are not alone in witnessing it they rely on someone else to do something about it. Eg the de ath man in the restaurant. Secondly the victim thinks the whole world knows and supports what's happening. When I was abused I didn't tell anyone for a long time because I thought they already knew. What can be done now? A social conscience for the protection of vulnerable girls, a method of reporting in appropriate behaviour and zero tolerance of men having sex with girls underage and/or much younger than themselves. I'm not sure how we make that happen though.

thecatsminion · 04/10/2012 22:52

I think it's important, given the nature of the crime, that child abusers always, always have the knowledge and the fear that their victims will grow up into adults who are able to accuse them.

They might think that they're just getting a thrill shagging some poor wee lassie who is unable to say no, or have a fantasy that they're introducing a willing and aware young woman into the adult world. If they realise that, 10 or 20 years on, what they did isn't just going to melt away, then they might think twice.

I think these high profile cases make abusers more aware that what they do now can be cast up when their victim is able to do so.