to be a little shocked at the laissez faire attitude to drugs on here?

[ThatVikRinA22]

at risk of sounding like your mum and pulling a cats bum face

im a bit shocked. Ive seen reference to drugs and recreational drug use on here before, and while i love the diversity of mn, im always quite shocked at what seems to be a majority? view that recreational drugs are just part of life, that its ok because 'professionals' do it too, that its not the same to be seen to use cocaine at the weekend as it is to be a shoplifter or prostitute with an addiction to herioin....

is it just that no one sees the murkier side of drug use?

i suppose i see the darker side because of what i do for a living, but even before that, i would never have been tempted to try. There are the wider issues with production, trafficking, crime, gangs, and the environmental issues in production
just one such story here

my brother was a heroin addict, and i lost my sister to drugs, one way or another, i believe drug use contributed to her death. Seriously, most the crime i deal with is in some way drug related. Two weeks ago i was involved in an attempted murder over cocaine and cannabis supply.

i am not some rabid campaigner, but this is mumsnet - are most of us parents? i find it odd that people can froth about the small stuff, that people get pilloried for some really bizarre stuff on here while threads about drug use get a fairly "meh" response. (yes its a thread inspired by the coke using teachers assistant....)

why is that? genuinely interested to explore why coke use is seen as ok, and wonder what is not ok?

if its ok for the TA to use coke at the weekend, is it ok for them to smoke crack? or use heroin? doctors were mentioned on the last thread....would you undergo an operation knowing your doctor or surgeon had used coke? or smoked cannabis?

if its just part of life, where would you draw the line?
do people not realise what it takes to get that gram of coke at the pub at the weekend?

mary you are right. Its very easy to sit on the side lines and talk about theory.

i know you have had a hard time with your DS, its one of my worries with mine, who also has AS.

I see a shocking number of kids who i think quite possibly have special needs, just lost in the system, hooked and on a downward spiral, and it often only involves cannabis.

i just find it very hard to get my head around why letting your 10 year old watch buffy is worse than their parents, or teachers, or TAs, using coke on a weekend.

How about actually discussing the issue with those of us who are not on the sidelines, and still happen to disagree with some of your view points?

There is absolutely no point to a discussion if one of the parties simply crosses their arms and essentially says 'This is what I think about it, and I'm right, and anyone who disagrees with me just doesn't know what its like.'

The really silly thing is that we actually do want the same outcome (less tragic outcomes from drug abuse). We just disagree about how that can be achieved.

Drugs being illegal did not save any of the family members whose deaths are spoken about on this thread, and they will not save the same situation from happening over and over and over again.

More real education is needed, honest education that children/teens can actually believe. Because they are not stupid, and when they realise adults are not being honest with them about drugs, they tend to disregard all the information they are given about drugs... and thats when they get into serious trouble.

I won't discuss it with anyone who tells me that cannabis isn't addictive. Because I have seen the effects (physical and mental) of that addiction.

So it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with people who are (a) deluded and (b) don't give a shit about those at the bottom of the pile - the addicts.

mary for you and all the others who have shared your stories.

One of my best friends at University was introduced to cannabis aged 13, by his best friend. Even with a good degree he has never wanted to apply for promotion, broaden his skills base, own his own home, have relationships etc and has a very apathetic attitude to everything. His parent's despaired because it was if he was stuck at being a whiny teenager. We lost touch about 10 years ago, because it was as if he could never move on from being an adolescent.

I wondered later if the term mind altering, actually means that the brain sometimes gets switched off and doesn't develop or adapt to changing situations, in some cases.

Thanks greenhill.

Scared, that wasn't aimed specifically you but at lots of posters on mumsnet, on many, many of these types of threads.

There is nothing at all you can say that would convince me that legalising the use of such harmful drugs could in any way improve the lives of addicts, even if it did improve things for the yuppy cocaine users . Or that it would in any way reduce the harm to all those on the supply chains.

And as it is a subject that really upsets me, it is not as easy for me just to chat about it as it obviously is for you.

Every time my son takes off his shirt I see the unhealthy remains of a child who used to be a fit, tanned, active sportsman. And on his chest is a tattoo for a friend who killed himself when he was 15 due to cannabis induced psychosis.

Expecting me to debate the issue is a bit much.

I agree with you MaryZed, cannabis is definitely addictive, and certainly I have never said anywhere on this thread that it isn't.

I am all ears for any counterarguments to the points I have been laying out regarding illegality being part of the problem rather than the solution.

Because I do want a solution. I don't want situations like yours and mine to happen any more, and if some people are going to use drugs (which they always will, legal or illegal), then I'd rather it be people who are properly informed, who can openly talk about it with parents, relatives, teachers, and who can receive quick support when needed.

my post was directed at the majority of posters - not you scared and i do think you make some valid points, and you have disclosed your own experiences,

i dont think its so much a question of legality for me - more that i associate drug use with some very seedy things (not just a legality issue - but a moral one), but i see that side of it probably much more in my everyday working life than a city banker, yet on here, it is simply sniffed at as an issue of choice, much like how to feed your baby or what to allow your kids to watch - yet - it appears to me that drug abuse and use is regarded much more leniently, with a much more relaxed attitude to it than those other issues, which blows my mind a bit, considering that its a parenting site.

it does me to wonder what the demographic on here is, and whether i fit it.

i am not anti debate. i do appreciate what you are saying, and if you have had those experiences and still a pro choice then similarly there is nothing i could say to make you change your mind - and im not trying to do that.

im simply stating my reality. i cant help that i find the 'wooly' attitude odd.

If you already know that there is 'nothing I could say', then you are not prepared to listen to what I do have to say.

Please do not take that as a judgement, because I do understand how pain can make it too hard to really engage.

I just really don't see the point in trying to have a discussion, when one side has no intention of hearing the other. If you hear and then disagree (with counterarguments), then that is one thing... but to be determined from the very beginning to hold your view point no matter what? No discussion possible.

Again, I really do have every respect and empathy for your pain, and many of the scars on my family members are already buried in the dirt, so do not serve as constant reminders. But if you are still in that place where the wounds are raw, then a discussion board is only going to cause you more pain.

And Vicar, I have every respect for the counterargments you have made, and have total respect for both yours and MaryZed's choice to hold the views you have.

But I did come here to debate, and do not like the thought of causing pain to people who are not ready for that. Honestly, I wonder if a support board might be a kinder place, rather than AIBU?

I have read all your posts Scared - I should have posted "nothing you have said" rather than "nothing you could say", if that makes sense.

I still think legalisation runs the risk of making it more available, therefore by definition causing more use, therefore making the problem worse. And I don't think you accept that argument and so you aren't willing to change your mind either.

None of your arguments have convinced me otherwise, though I do appreciate that you have been nice and polite about it , unlike most of the threads on teenagers where i get called a control freak at best, and an irresponsible parent, among other things.

I think Vicar's point that the vast, vast majority of mumsnetters just don't care is very true. So we are back to BIWI's "I'm all right Jack" attitude.

was that to me scared? i think you have misunderstood my point if it was. i said i was not trying to change your mind, and i am listening.

i am not refusing to engage, - i would say that you have more to say on this than most others with a "meh" or "im alright jack" attitude, and ive stated several times that some of your points i think are valid. I am not raw or in pain, if i were i dont think i could go to work. my real point was not about drug use - more the way its viewed on here, and i suspect that many people do not actually understand the realities of it - not you.

anyway, talking of work, its time to go.

ooo x posts with mary

anyway, ttfn.

x-posted

I've tried to set up a support thread in teenagers many times because there are a lot of parents here in the same boat as I am. Every time it gets derailed by fuckwits insistent that we as parents are causing more harm to our children than the odd spliff. So I have given up on that.

"I should have posted "nothing you have said" rather than "nothing you could say", if that makes sense."

Absolutely fair enough.

I would honestly love to explore the reasons why you don't agree in more depth, but I do feel that it is not fair for me to do so, as you quite rightly said earlier that my pain is not so raw for me any more.
I don't want to pour any more salt on your open wounds, but I am also concerned that this thread just inevitably will hurt.

Because I agree with you that a lot of people cannot understand the kind of pain you have felt unless they have felt it. However, that really isn't their fault.

Which is why, in the nicest possible way, AIBU really is only going to hurt you, because the majority of people have not had the same sort of experiences you have, and can't really do anything about that.

I wonder if a support group that is already set up and running somewhere might be of more help (because they tend to attract people with exclusively similar experiences, or at least police out activity from members who are being disrespectful/unhelpful).

And yes, cross-posts Vicar, I have enjoyed debating with your arguments, although I am starting to feel guilty about continuing, because I am increasingly getting the impression you are in a place of rather acute pain/stress yourself at the moment (forgive me if I'm wrong).
And I honestly don't want to make that worse.

"I won't discuss it with anyone who tells me that cannabis isn't addictive"

You mean like Former Surgeon General of the US, Jocelyn Elders who said on CNN: ?Marijuana is not addictive, not physically addictive anyway.?

It is addictive in the sense that alcohol is addictive - only in very heavy use over a long period of time.

Do you also want alcohol to be outlawed?

By the way, I do understand that as people who have suffered the tragedy of addicts in your family, you will be sensitive to this issue. But if you are so sensitive that you can't even discuss it, there is a problem here and it is not one that is caused by those of us who would like to discuss it with you.

It probably would help, Scared, but they are hard to find and incredibly depressing.

I also find myself in the ridiculous position where parents of addicts are sort of envious of me because ds is only using cannabis. So I feel a bit guilty, which is a very odd feeling.

I do appreciate your points. And yes, I am probably much too personally involved to get into any sort of reasonable discussion.

I usually stay away from these threads, and I've been interested to see that none of the parents on her who I can talk to about this have been on the thread - probably because they feel like me. It is too raw when you are going though it.

It's the old business that hypothetical discussions are only ok when you don't actually mind about them - otherwise it matters too much to see both sides.

The original op wasn't actually about drugs, though, it was more surprise that more people don't seem to care about the issue. That used to surprise me, now it doesn't. People are very blinkered until it affects their lives personally - at which point they care too much!

See, there you go

"I also find myself in the ridiculous position where parents of addicts are sort of envious of me because ds is only using cannabis. So I feel a bit guilty, which is a very odd feeling."

Ugh, that really is awful. I'll keep an eye out for any groups that might have a more positive, productive slant on things (and maybe more appropriate for your situation), because it would actually help the people I encounter in my line of work as well.

If that makes you angry, MaryZed, you shouldn't be hanging out in AIBU.

If you are staying, though, I would like your answer to my question:

Do you want alcohol outlawed?

If alcohol wasn't already legal, I doubt it would be.

I can hang out where I like thanks. And i can be angry when people are dismissive of other people, in aibu or anywhere else.

Your contributions to this thread have been neither useful nor interesting, by the way. if you have something to say, then say it, without being snarky, dismissive or rude. It's very easy to be polite, you know, even if you disagree - Scared and I have managed to have a reasonable discussion, despite disagreeing thoroughly.

a close friend of mine is addicted to food. she has a phenomenally negative relationship with it that really - if you get a glimpse into how she sees it - makes you see food as horrid rubbish worthy only of the bin. Food is not addictive, yet, she is addicted to it nonetheless. food (particularly sugar and fat) is the bane of her life.

Cannibis does not create physical dependency, yet it can be addictive.

Mumsnet has a particular demographic - MC university educated people - these peopl David Nutts enquiry found cannibis uage to be 'largely benign' or similar words to.

I didn't really say anything in this thread, because of some like you who were clearly not going to listen to any experience that contradicts theirs. I'm sorry you found that uninteresting of me

You haven't answered my question, though: Do you want alcohol to be illegal?

If not, why not?

Put it this way, if it was currently illegal, I wouldn't want it legalised.

There would be uproar if it was now made illegal - like a lot of things that were historically allowed but now are known to be bad for us. Nicotine is the same.

I don't see that the presence of one addictive drug (alcohol) should have any relationship to the legalisation of another illegal drug.

So I have no feelings one way or another about alcohol.