to not want school to teach my kids how to speak in the way the teachers wants?

[bellabreeze]

Having irish accents the teacher of some of my kids has told me they would do little speech classes so they speak different.. its not the accent but its things like saying 'ting' not 'thing' and dat not that and stuff like that really.. I think.. I don't think it is important enough to waste time doing? But maybe I am wrong?

I've never felt the least bit judged for my accent habbibu, though some people have mocked me for it, which is a bit nasty but just twattish and not racist as such. I'm not sure the accent thing is really much of a problem any more these days.

No, me neither, though it's definitely Northern and now very mongrel. The point is, will the OP's children face prejudice in their chosen area of work for saying "dis" and "ting"? And if so, is that the fault of the children or the employer? I'd say the employer, but what do you do, if the employment market is a buyer's one? I don't know. Hate the idea of caving to prejudice, but is it possible to effect change without people getting in in the first place?

I really don't know if I'm making sense.

Thats not the same thing, is it? Teaching english pronounciation in english class to people who are not english speakers and not in england is nothing at all like telling native english speakers in england that their accent is not up to scratch.

Xiao, that sounds like anti-Aus sentiment!

I think there's prejudice on both sides. As I said, I got teased quite nastily at school for the RP elements of my accent. And it does me no favours in lots of social situations. My brother has completely dropped his as he could not really do the job he does with an RP accent - people just wouldn't respond to him the way they do when he speaks in something closer to their accent.

But IMO saying that people get bullied/discriminated against for certain accents and therefore the accent should change is the wrong way around.

I think it's like speaking Welsh - people my gran's age can remember when that was considered shameful and they were punished for doing it at school. You'd never see that now, because an effort has been made to spread the use of Welsh and to explain how it's a matter of identity for lots of people.

yy - worked on a playscheme in Liverpool when I was a student in the holidays. One of the boys said "you're not a Scouser" I assured him I was, but he said "No, cos you say jolly, and scousers don't say jolly."

I fixed him with a gimlet stare, and said "I've been a scouser longer than you've been alive, sunshine".

Xiao, actually I meant 'you're expected to just get on with it' in that very few people in my company actually have a Queen's English accent - so you have people with Irish accents speaking on the phone with people with Indian accents, and people with Scottish accents speaking with people with Portuguese accents, etc, and Germans, and Americans, and et.cetera et. cetera. So it would be quite difficult to know where the 'onus' falls, in that situation. Everyone has an accent. There is no one, 'pure' English-language accent that we default to when in doubt, really. I suppose we all just speak more slowly in our own accents, and the other person quickly learns how to to work with and interpret those rhythms. But I tend to speak more slowly on the phone even when speaking in an 'official' context with other Irish people, anyway. Phone voice, everyone has one :)

From reading this thread, accented English seems like it might be more of a problem in U.K-based workplaces and schools than it is elsewhere. I hadn't really realised this.

My Irish accent has definitely caused problems for some people in work environments, it's usually the English people that find it difficult to understand, or that miss some words (I tend to speak quite quickly). I wonder is it because I make an effort to slow down when speaking to non-native English speakers and I expect English/Americans/Aussies to understand me, as I can understand them.

At any rate, I notice English people tend to have very clipped accents at first, which then become less formal over time. Americans tend to speak in their own accent all the time. (Loads of generalisations there, I will probably be torn apart).

Finally, I am pretty frequently complimented on my accent, I think people tend to like an Irish accent in a casual, social environment, but are not as impressed by the soft intonations in a work environment. Perhaps it can be percieved as too casual in a professional work environment.

I think accents are very tribal, you are identifying yourself with your peers, it allows opportunity for snobbery and reverse snobbery.

BonsoirWed 03-Oct-12 07:54:15

Of course, everyone is free to speak with a regional accent at home, if that is what they wish.

Why thank you kind lady.

I remember some kids at school (Greater Manchester) writing "are" for "our" because of the way it is pronounced there, and writing "I were" because that's the dialect form of saying "I was".

You need to know both I think, the received version for writing, as well that dialects exist, and to be intelligible enough that others from outside your area can understand you. Otherwise your life is going to be very restricted. Posh and cloistered or not posh and provincial, at two extremes of the scale.

Sorry MrSunshine I was responding to your question: "Would you think it acceptable for a teacher to give an Chinese child elocution lessons to make them sound more English? Or an Indian, South African, Brazilian child? "

And my answer is yes, absolutely, especially if they are in school in the UK. Not quite sure how I have misunderstood you

you answered a question about giving foreign children in England lessons to make them sound more English, with an anecdote about teaching English in a foreign country and you don't see how you misunderstood?

They are entirely different situations. If you are in China teaching English your job is to teach them how to speak English as well as they can. If you are a teacher in England your job IS NOT to make foreigners (or even worse, accented natives) to sound more English.

If you can't tell the massive difference between the two situations, I suggest you need some lessons of your own.

Yes, I do think it's a teacher's job in England to make children in their class who are not native speakers sound more English, if that teacher is teaching them English. Is that the wrong answer?

YABU. What you describe is not to do with 'accent'. Plenty of Irish people pronounce that with a "th" sounds, not a "d".

I think it is absolutely right that the teacher is encouraging them to pronounce the words correctly, not just to help with spelling but because, well, they are saying the words incorrectly.

lIn Ireland there is more than one accent, as there is in the UK

Anyway, I was just trying to provide a light-hearted anecdote about being taught to alter my own native accent. Sorry if I have offended you.

Sorry that was to MrS

Bona, as ZZZen said, there is more than one accent in Ireland. I say "dis" and "dat" and if someone corrected me I'd tell them to fuck off. If an English person moved to my home town there's no way anyone would be rude enough to tell them they were pronouncing "car" or "order" wrong, because it is natural for an English person not to roll their "r"s. Would you be ok with someone in Tipperary correcting how you pronounce your "r"s? Because in Tipp you would be the one who was "wrong".

Xiao, getting a child to "sound more English" isn't very straightforward. I would agree that a non-native speaker should be encouraged to pronounce English clearly but you have to draw the line at a teacher objecting to, say, a French child having a slightly rolled "r" or a Chinese child who has a particular intonation. These are things that don't really take from how comprehensible a child is, and trying to correct them could cause the child to become so self-conscious that they don't want to speak their second language. It's normal for a child to have a native accent, everyone has one, and being overly picky and insisting people only pronounce things one very particular way isn't really going to work.

Can anyone explain why dis and dat and fanks are incorrect but "barth" and "drawring" are an acceptable variation? There's no r in bath.

You don't put "r" in, Halcyon. It's a long "a" sound.

But the British are dreadfully snobbish about accents, quite often invertedly. I'm pretty sure most other countries are just as bad. I can't be the only English person to have restricted their vocabulary in order to be more 'acceptable' at an English workplace ("Ate a dictionary for breakfast, did you?") and to have taken up glottal stops while working in London.

There certainly are no universal rules of correct English pronunciation. Many regional accents pronounce the consonants in a word right up to the end, whereas the upper classes swallow the final syllable and some in the middle. My family moved house frequently so, like children everywhere, we quickly learned to speak in ways that would make us readily understood locally. If children communicate well and have adequate writing skills, there's no problem. The teacher is wrong.

And it should be "drawing" not "drawring"

For pete's sake, Katisha, it sounds like "ar" to us!