IQ in children

[BaskeyJill]

My friend is a teacher and made a comment the other day that made me wonder. She thinks that she can identify which children in her year 4 class could go on to be doctors, solicitors, vets etc and which children would never be capable of achieving the grades needed.

My pfb DS is 7 and has just started year 3. When I look at him I assume he could be anything he wants to be. At the moment he is slightly below average (he is an August birth) but I think he is still so little! He has another 11 years of school until he does his A Levels and I am a bit that my friend thinks he isn't ever going to achieve the 'higher' tier jobs.

Cakebump

There are a number of issues with your most recent post, but can you start by providing evidence for IQ testing being developed to '"prove" that African-American women were educationally subnormal'?

No mellen, I tried doing one in an iq book and scored much the same, if I was that low I would not be able to write this. I am useless at spacial awareness, manipulating objects in my head, mental arithmetic but des not make me unintelligent. Most iq tests are much the same imo

cake - oh, sure, it makes sense to me too, if the mum is home her IQ/ed level will be important.

But that's not the point.

The mum's IQ/educational level doesn't determine the child's IQ. You could never prove that. It might contribute (and we could conjecture as to why, and how, and whether dad or nanny's IQ might do just as well if they cared for the child). But all we can say from the research, is that it predicts the child's IQ reasonably well.

They are different things and it matters, IMO.

IQ tests don't measure intelligence, they only measure how well you can complete IQ tests!

mellen this is just a very quick quote from wiki:

"The eugenics movement in the USA seized on it as a means to give them credibility in diagnosing mental retardation, and thousands of American women, most of them poor African Americans, were forcibly sterilized based on their scores on IQ tests, often without their consent or knowledge."

Mellen I studied psychology and yes there are early studies where iq has been used on African Americans to try and prove that white people were more intelligent. Of course that is not true and is widely disproved

Pigletmania

I wouldn't go with a self done marked one either. There is a reason why psychologists are specially trained to administer the IQ tests that they do, it is about facilitating the test in a way to achieve an accurate result.

For people who have mentioned practice effect, it is also standard to leave a gap between repeating tests to avoid this influencing the result.

mellen - ed psychs will also point out that the tests can't be made accurate for everyone (and 'facilitating' means 'making easier').

Cakebump and pigletmania

I wasnt disputing that. The assertion that I was questioning was the claim that IQ tests were developed to '"prove" that African-American women were educationally subnormal'. Is there any evidence for that?

Not sure you can do an IQ test without repeating facts, though - you do have to put them in context, of course, but they are still facts at the end of the day, and therefore dependent on your cultural context.

Will have to look in my old psychology books, there are studies somewhwere. I would like to know my actual iq aim sure it's not 30

Interesting LaQueen, my DB was always like that too.

But to get back to the OP's question, would it be fair for a teacher to look at your DD2 and say "lawyer" and perhaps not at your DD1, or someone else's DC? Is it fair to presume that her ability on these tests is the main indicator as to whether she'll attend law school and become a top lawyer?

LRD

I use the word facilitate in the sense of assisting the process of test completion.

Are you saying that a psychologist administered test is not likely to produce a more robust result than an online test or one self administered from a book?

Oh, that's a shame.

I wouldn't worry, she'll get through it and then she can do what she likes later on. If she is this bright, it won't matter.

Oh, sorry, cross post.

mellen - I see.

No, I agree, a psych test should be more accurate than an online test, obviously. But I think it's important to acknowledge that ed psychs will admit when IQ tests aren't appropriate. That's the other drawback with online/self-adminstered tests, isn't it - that there's no-one to tell you if it's even an appropriate test to be doing.

Surely the online iq questions found online or in a book are much the same as a psychologist administered one. Either way it only measures intelligence in that point in time, internal and external factors could affect the result

LRD

I agree, it might be a test that doesn't properly address whatever the issue is, or give an uninterpretable result.

Interesting discussion. I had an 'interesting' childhood (neglect etc.) extended family upper middle class but immediate family was awful. I still aced all logic puzzles, tests, 11+. General knowledge was weak as little exposure and not a great recall memory. Oxbridge with no family support so something in my brain works, then got first in ou degree.

But failed relationship and now living ex council and completely lost in life! Certainly had no guidance or encouragement career wise and that makes all the difference I think. I excelled at studying and logic but that's not translated. To success and happiness. Will be interesting to see if my high Iq effects my dc or our low income and opportunitys, lack of confections etc

As.

mellen - yep, that's what I was meaning.

When I was at primary school the girl who always came first to my second got pregnant at 17 then married instead of going to college. She didn't study in later life, I think she didn't want to 'succeed' academically, she was the brightest in a large family and pressured alot at school. I did ok at secondary but became a sAHM as DH worked away alot.

Some lower down the class, who probably didnt' stay on at school (though they would these days) went on to set up their own businesses and did very well.

DD's ex boyfriend who was a sneaky little twerp went on to be a doctor . I've worked in the nhs and would discourage my dCs from becoming doctors. The finances are too restricting these days.

Has anyone mentioned the 'Pygmalion effect' or the 'Golem effect' yet? There have been a few research studies (esp in the 60s and 70s) that show that teachers' expectations have a significant effect on students' attainment. So students perform better in tests if teachers expect them to do well, and vice versa.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_effect

emotional intelligence is the best predictor of academic success

plenty of folk who pass the 11 plus end up in crap jobs just as plenty of folk who go to secondary are very successful

swings and roundabouts