to question the cut in housing benefits for under occupying council tenants?

[Liketochat1]

In April next year the government are cutting housing benefits to working age council tenants who have more bedrooms than they need. They will be offered alternative accommodation of an appropriate size with no reduction in housing benefit as an alternative.
Is it fair to change the current system like this? To ask people to leave their homes and possibly the area in which they live? To expect siblings of the same gender to share a room?
Do you think it will be extended to include oaps who occupy properties which are too big for them. Should it?

I just did some quick fact checking.

I used the dept of national statistics site, can't remember if I picked England or UK, so for arguments sake, let's say UK.

At March 2013
23.1m dwellings
19.1m private
4m social + affordable rentals
Over the previous year built
93k more private dwellings
19k more social dwellings
Population of UK 63M
That's 1 dwelling per 2.7 people.

How can we say there aren't enough houses?

BreTrust did a report in 2009 (only saw summary) which showed there were 64k families in temporary accomodation, and 4% vacant dwellings. Let's say there were 400k less dwellings between 2013 and 2009, that's almost 1 MILLION dwellings sitting empty.

Instead of building more houses, govt should buy up these empty dwellings and renovate, or force owners to rent them out.

I suspect the problem is not a shortage of housing, but a shortage of housing where people WANT to live.

SaucyJack How would a family of five be under-occupying a 3 bed house?

Our youngest is two months old, and babies don't count towards the number of occupants until they are one.

Dawn, I've been trying to think of a disability that DOESN'T, in any way, warrant extra space. I can't really come up with anything, can you?

ReallyTired you seem to be muddying the waters between lifetime tenancies and housing benefit. Is it ok to have the lifetime tenancy if you don't claim housing benefit?

Actually, no, not at the moment, Luis.

Thanks Saucy. I guess maybe you can move when the baby is one, so not too much longer.

"Dawn, I've been trying to think of a disability that DOESN'T, in any way, warrant extra space. I can't really come up with anything, can you?"

Profound deafness
Being visually impaired
Bipolar disorder
depression
learning difficulties

However there might be circumstances where somone with the above conditions does warrant extra space. However not EVERYONE with these conditions needs extra space. Also a lot depends on the age of the person with a disablity. A small baby needs less space than an adult.

Yes you are right there is a muddying of the waters between social housing and those on housing beneft. However these are both ways the state helps people with their housing. In times of austerity the state has to give help based on need rather than what people want.

If someone's circumstances change then surely its only right that the amount of help they are given changes. You may feel with the birth a new baby you need a council house and should get extra housing benefit to help with the increased rent. Prehaps it can be argued that when your youngest turns 19 and leaves home you no longer need your 3 bed council house. Certainly there is talk of five year contracts to enable families to plan and free up housing stock.

www.theguardian.com/society/2010/aug/03/lifetime-council-tenancies-contracts-cameron

Some people are just judgemental, stuck up and don't want anyone to have anything they havn't got. Its sickening to read, time and time again.

The country is going to the dogs due to the lack of community spirit and I'm alright Jack every man for himself culture.

Do some people not realise what not having a stable home does to people's mental health? Probably not because they've always been so privileged they've never been in such a situation. As I said, sickening.

Yep, that's from 2010. Its still a shit idea in 2014.

'Certainly there is talk of five year contracts to enable families to plan and free up housing stock.'

Yes, and leave millions of people never feeling stable, part of a community or like they 'belong' anywhere. Do you have any idea how it feels to know you cannot stay in your 'home' long term and as soon as anything you'll be chucked out and forced to uproot yet again? Are you totally clueless to what a lack of stability and a sense of belonging in life does to people and families, and childrens mental health when they get older?

I was one of those children who moved every 2 years to a different house, as an adult I struggle with similar issues, never feel settled or stable anywhere, don't feel like I 'belong' anywhere and never have. The feeling is so empty. People who have always been privileged enough to have a stable long term home in childhood and then when they are adults aswell just do not understand and shouldn't be able to have their opinions influence any of these issues as they are clueless.

Not to mention some families havn't got the money to 'plan' or to move house, are you really that out of touch?!!

22honey

Thank you for your great posts nice to see someone who thinks the same way I do.

I applaud you Xx

Profound deafness
Being visually impaired
Bipolar disorder
depression
learning difficulties

Apart from the fact that you cannot include Learning difficulties in that because they would need to be defined, ASDs for example can be classes as a learning difficulty, I can think of all sorts of reasons why extra room would be needed by all of the above. It's easy for you sitting on your high horse making sweeping statements. There are many here having to live with it. Many being forced from their homes because they are disabled.

Ha, pigs will fly the day your considered 'disabled' in this country for depression or bipolar disorder! Your lucky to get ESA with such illnesses...

Yes 22, all this "just move" - it costs a bomb. For private rentals, you need a minimum of £1500, removal costs on top of that. Even if you do it yourself, you need about £200 for van hire. Speaking as someone who has £0.49 in the bank, I'd find even the £200 impossible.

Yes Luis, thats exactly it! I'm sure some people are truly that out of touch and privileged they can't imagine someone wouldn't even have 20p in their bank account on most days, but thats very common and everyday reality for a lot of us.

Some people after paying bills and buying food have nothing left, not even 10p so where the hell are we supposed to find the hundreds usually thousands it costs to 'just move'....as I said totally out of touch and live in Ivory Towers, it makes me laugh such people feel qualified to even comment tbh.

the effects of bedroom tax

why you may need extra room

22honey - wouldn't a smaller place have less rent though? so if the council could help with the removal costs (i don't supposse they currently do) or a charity might step in then it would save money?

my IL's always say that benefits should be based on need (they are staunch labour) that being the case it would suggest downsizing for those that don't need the rooms, espec if they are broke and need lower rent

I'm sorry I don't see why an ex serviceman needs a three bedroom house just so that his grandchildren can stay over, even if he is disabled.

There are limited community care grants to help with removal costs.

dawn I don't think the bloke in that link has a leg to stand on. He wants the extra two rooms because his kids stay at the weekend and at points in the holidays? How many houses should kids have a subsidised bedroom at?

Gosh, such lovely sympathetic understanding people here.

fifi669

I don't think the bloke in that link has a leg to stand on

No he probably can't stand seeing that he has Osteoarthritis in his hips!

His home has been adapted for his needs, to maintain his independence and dignity is he not worthy???? Can they find him a smaller property with the same adaptations???? I doubt it. They will rip them out of that house and have to waste money redoing a smaller property, if there is one available.

Do bear in mind he is ex-RAF, that IMHO deserves respect.

Dawn I echo your comment. Sympathy and empathy are very lacking in some posts.

You can play the violins all you like about the bloke in the link being in a wheelchair and forget about the hardship of families trapped in one bed flats. What about their needs? Families trapped in B and B are so common that they don't get into the newspapers.

"His home has been adapted for his needs, to maintain his independence and dignity is he not worthy???? Can they find him a smaller property with the same adaptations???? I doubt it. They will rip them out of that house and have to waste money redoing a smaller property, if there is one available."

We need more houses for disabled people. There are plenty of other people in wheelchairs who also have family living with them. Its a matter of matching the exisiting accomodiation to the needs of those on the waiting list.

'22honey - wouldn't a smaller place have less rent though? so if the council could help with the removal costs (i don't supposse they currently do) or a charity might step in then it would save money?

my IL's always say that benefits should be based on need (they are staunch labour) that being the case it would suggest downsizing for those that don't need the rooms, espec if they are broke and need lower rent'

A smaller place does not always have less rent, especially not if you have to move to private rent! There are barely any council properties available, that is the point, there is nowhere for anyone to downsize to and private rented are often more expensive than council for a smaller property.

Council does not help with removal costs, if you can find a charity that will do it you are lucky.

You and your IL's point is moot when there is nowhere for people to downsize to. I suppose you are for mass building of council properties then? And a budget for councils to pay to move everyone that needs moving? Because thats whats needed for this ingenious (not) plan to work.

Reallytired, I think you are merely admitted the obvious, that more council housing needs building full stop nevermind just for disabled people. If you want to kick people out their 3 and 2 beds and move them to a 1 bed you atleast need some 1 beds to move them to!

I live in a Hard to Let area in Liverpool.

All the bedroom tax has done is cost more, because tenants are moving from cheap HA houses, to more expensive private lets.

This has created boarded up properties, at the moment, we have needed a temporary Police Station to stop the teens torching etc the empty houses.

We don't have a housing shortage in Liverpool, we didn't need the Bedroom tax to be applied, it is destroying communities.

I want to know were the new children moved into the empty houses will go to school, because we have had three primaries and two senior schools closed, in the last five years.

I would never of accepted my house, in the state it was in, if I knew that I may have to move once one of my children left home.

You couldn't rent a house out privately in the state some HA homes and gardens are in. It takes years on a low income to sort them out.

There may be parts of the country that needed Housing strategies, mainly London etc, but the North West didn't.