to think this pub shouldn't say this on their disabled bays?

[madhairday]

A sign by a pub's disabled parking bays I saw today: 'For use by disabled customers except when car park is full '

Now the bays were not marked with disabled bay markers, but there were no other disabled customers' parking bays.

Does this go against the DDA, right of access etc? So basically, if the car park is full, tough if you're disabled? Never mind that if you're able bodied you can park elsewhere and walk over - it's effectively turning disabled customers away in this instance.

I think it's against equal access.

It is a bit bizarre, actually.

Surely the idea of disabled bays is that one is likely to be available for a disabled person, even if the car park is otherwise full.

Of course, if they are not legally obliged to provide disabled bays, they can do what they like, but why provide them at all if they aren't going to be used properly?

I don't thnk that privately owned car parks are obliged to have disabled spaces at all, especially if their car park is free to their own customers. I can think of plenty of small car parks that don't have any designated disabled spaces. If they aren't obliged t have disabled spaces at all, then I think it's better that they offer them but allow them to be used by others if the car park is full than for them not to designate spaces at all.

I don't know the legal position either, but tend to feel the pub is NBU. If the car park's full, no driver gets a space whether they're disabled or not so they're equal. If there's only one space left, again all incoming drivers have an equal problem regardless of ability.

It wouldn't be fair to enforce the rule at all times unless disabled drivers were barred from the other spaces, iyswim. And that would be daft!

YABU.

A pub is a private business. They have done the right thing by providing spaces for use by disabled customers. However, it does not make sense to have to turn away able bodied customers who are there trying to park when the disabled customers are not actually there. This obviously wouldn't apply to spaces for disabled customers in a place where people need to go, such as a docs surgery or food shops/chemist etc. In these places, disabled spaces should only ever be used by blue badge holders.

Nobody actually NEEDS to go to a pub but from the pub's pov, it makes sense to get the people in who are actually there as conveniently as possible so they can make as much money as possible!

"If two cars pulled in, 1 space left, should the first driver be turned away because the only space is a disabled bay, even when they arrived first, and the second car with a disabled person in it get priority even though they arrived after?"

Generally the second car should get the space in that instance.

The first car only has to wait for one (any) occupant of the carpark to leave, or could perhaps park elsewhere and walk to the pub.

A disabled person does not have those options - they often have to wait for a specific car to leave, which can take so much longer that they give up waiting.

Which is just part of the reason such spaces exist.

But in reality, who in that instance would actually think "I got in first" and park in a disabled bay when a disabled person is actually there trying to get a space? I think very few people would specifically do that.

Its kind of like the theatre ticket situation. Wheelchair accessible "seat" spaces are held back from general sale UNTILL all other seats are sold, at which point they may be sold and regular seats put in the space.

So , a wheelchair user might rock up to the theatre and find there are no wheelchair spaces left BECAUSE the show has sold out. There may however be returns... which are unlikley to be the wheelchair spaces. Rather like inteh pub car park as people leave other spaces they become available but are not the signed ( and presumably wider/ flat/ easy access to pub door) spaces.

I guess the pub owner is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.

As I recall, the legal position is that car parks with more than 200 spaces must provide 4% of their spaces as disabled bays. Liesure Centres and supermarkets must provide 6% of their spaces as disabled bays.

There is no legal requirement on a pub with less than 200 spaces (most pubs I would think!) to have any disabled bays at all.

I think the pub owner probably thought it would be nice for the spaces nearest the entrance to be saved for blue badge holders if possible, but puts extra custom ahead of holding those spaces open in case a blue badge holder happens to want to visit when it's really busy.

Given the owner has no obligation it's not a bad thought, though not exactly saintly.

I would imagine these spaces are nearest to the doors, so easier for disabled customers to get in and out of the pub. Therefore the pub are saying, please dont park in these spaces if other spaces are available.

I would never even try going to a cinema without booking with DS (disabled).

We are often unable to even book as although the wheelchair spaces are free, and many other seats are free, people book the seats beside the wheelchair spaces which means I would not be able to sit beside him.

I assume people are justthinking "what are the chances of a wheelchair user needing that space/seat/bathroom just now anyway"

It becomes more difficult and offputting to take DS places as that way of thinking becomes more generally prevalent though.

I like your post, hildebrand. My son does not actually need to go to the cinema either. It happens to be one of the very few places he can enjoy, that most children enjoy, and I admit it is very frustrating when we can't book to go unless we are almost first in the booking queue.

Most pub have no disabled parking anyway and Thankfully most people still manage to access them (i know it makes it harder without the extra door room etc)

This pub has made some provision for disabled parking but at the same time doesn't want to loose business because people can't park when their are empty spaces outside - that I can fully appreciate especially if it is a smaller pub/car park.

but really, how much business would they lose if they ensured that disabled spaces were for disabled drivers or passengers?
Potenially quite alot actually. Say there are 3 disabled spots. On a night those spots may be used several times, by able bodied people. Not sure if the pub does food, but if it does the lids could be significant.
if each of 3 spaces is used twice a night with 2 people in each time, that's 12 customers. Each spending £5 per head (which is quite conservative) that's £60 per night.
I own a restaurant and can tell you £60 per night is a lot to loose, especially since he doesn't actually have to provide the spaces.
Its a difficult one. Legally he is doing more than he should, but his business shouldn't suffer for doing so.

Sorry not 'more than he should' I meant 'legally he is doing more than he has to.'

It's a pub. I don't see why disabled people need priority to visit a pub. I DO understand that they need larger parking spaces with lots of room around the car for access, and that is why it's nice to see such spaces labelled as for the disabled. I'm not saying disabled people shouldn't visit a pub, hell no. I'm saying it's a very nice thing that some pubs have disabled parking bays, but the publican is not being unreasonable to allow others to park in those bays when the rest of the car park is full.

In fact, I think the rest of the country needs to wise up and provide more disabled bays, even if it's just one. My (old) local GP surgery didn't have any bays because their car park was tiny. Disabled people had to park on the main road and even then there was no priority. Frankly, I think they should have made the small car park purely for disabled users and made the staff and able bodied park on the damn road.

Ok I went off subject...

Actually I just thought of something else... what if the car park is full when you get there, so you park in the bay, but when you leave the car park has lots of spaces and you're still parked in the disabled bay and have possibly forced a disabled person to go somewhere else because the other bays aren't suitable? Also, what really stops someone parking there because the only space left is awkward to park in or they just can't be bothered? Who polices this?

I think they should have made it one way or the other, not both.

So perhaps on private land they are not proper disabled bays, but courtesy ones.
I don't know what the laws are on that sort of provision, but I agree that it is confusing as the abuse of disabled parking is widespread and many think they are optional and for anyone who wants them.

I suspect what they're hoping will happen is that the spaces filling up will act as an indication to someone disabled that the place is slammed with no tables left, so they won't have to face getting out of the car then getting back in when they realize it's full. It's never going to work properly, though, so I think it seems a bit of a stupid idea too.

Isn't it just the equivalent of 'give up this seat in case a disabled person needs it' on the bus? i.e. A voluntary thing appealing to other people's goodwill rather than a mandatory things backed up by laws?

op out of interest where these spaces bigger than the rest of the spaces or just nearest to the door?

Who polices this?
No one because he is not legally obliged to provide them. The LL is simply asking people to leave them for disabled customers unless the carpark is full.

Accessible parking bay provision requirements will vary by council. There is a guide for the requirements set down as part of the planning regulations.
Some will have no requirements, others (generally any pub that has had work done to it in recent years) will have a requirement.
The age of a building is not a good enough 'excuse' for not providing accessible accommodation under the legislation it's far more complicated that that. Businesses must make 'reasonable adjustments to provide access to goods and services) and that can be judged on a situational basis but if a large company owns the building/business they are much more likely to be held liable to make the adjustments regardless of cost than an individual.

It comes down to how many bays the pub has in total IMO. If they've got 10 bays and 2 of them are disabled then once those 8 bays are full unless they get 2 disabled people every night that's potentially 2 customers who can't park and so go elsewhere.

A pub car park is not like a supermarket one, when spaces are taken they're generally going to be taken for 2 hours plus so there's no driving round waiting for a space. So it's a case of giving priority to the disabled without giving exclusive access to a finite resource.

In reply to hildebrandisgettinghappier Wed 26-Sep-12 21:55:35

My comment re nobody NEEDS to go to the pub is not about trading off the rights of disabled/able bodied people and what they need to do. It is about the pub's need to make money in order that it can continue in business and keep the owners employed. I am presuming that the pub in question is a small business. My comments do not apply to something like a big cinema chain - that is totally different.