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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to wonder if men can 'have it all'?

83 replies

ICBINEG · 10/09/2012 13:54

Is it possible for a man to combine a professional career with the demands of having a family?

How can men go about balancing late meetings or foreign business trips with having to pick children up from school or nursery?

What challenges do men face when going back to work after having a family? Are employers reasonable when men apply to go back part time, or need to take leave to look after sick children?

AIBU to think that there is something wrong with a society for which all of these questions are essentially meaningless in their current form but are apparently very much still a source of topical debate when you switch the gender?

OP posts:
Veryfrustratedandfedup · 10/09/2012 14:19

Men have far more choices than women. It sucks

BeeBee12 · 10/09/2012 14:24

Men dont really have a choice they just have to work and thats that.Older men make young men feel bad about the 2 weeks paternity never mind anything else.

Most young dads I know have been moaned at saying we didnt have this in my day or I only took 1 day off in the 70s/80s.I think its much worse for men as women have more choice and opportunities to have a family life.

kim147 · 10/09/2012 14:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MoreBeta · 10/09/2012 14:39

Every professional man at the top of his career I have ever known has had a full time housewife/mother at home providing back up. I also know of one woman who has a full time househusband/father at home providing back up.

It is impossible for both people to have a high powered careers without full time back up of 3 x nanny cover, plus housekeeper and a lot of money to pay for it.

amillionyears · 10/09/2012 14:41

A very good question.Not sure I have much to say at this point.
I think in the last few decades, some men have been able to have it all.
But I have always felt sorry for men,because many of them are expected to provide,way into their sixties.One of my reason for being pleased that I was not born a man.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 10/09/2012 15:09

As with most supposedly feminist issues, the men are getting a raw deal out of gender stereotyping just as the women are.

My DH who is full time carer for my DD was once told he couldn't come to a baby massage class because people might want to BF. It got sorted but there is just such a huge mental block in the collective conscience when it comes to men as primary carers....and such a mental block when it comes to the assumption that it is the woman and not the man that will take the career hit associated with having a family....

OP posts:
tulipgrower · 10/09/2012 15:32

No, men can't have it all. Many juggle, struggle and compromise in the same way women do. DH took a less lucrative job, with fewer career possibilities to be closer to home. His boss is fortunately flexible when it comes to doctor's appointments, sick kids, sick wife, etc. To be home at a reasonable hour he often has to spend his nights working from home. But this is no way to groom a career. But I sure when he's hanging with his boys he thinks this compromise is more than worthwhile.

niceguy2 · 10/09/2012 15:50

Men cannot have it all anymore than a woman can.

About twelve years ago my career was flying. I was earning around £1500 per week as a contractor and very much in demand. Was never out of a contract and had built a good reputation.

I took a massive pay cut but still a good salary because I wanted to reskill in another area. Plus I'd got back with my ex who didn't like the contracting lifestyle which was pretty much me travelling Mon-Fri and home for weekends.

Eventually we split and I ended up being full time single dad. Over the next few years I learned very much that it's just as much a balancing act for men as it is for women. I had to juggle my time and leave meetings on time even if they were still going on. The journey from office to school left me with a 10 minute window. One traffic jam and I'd be late. DD was always the first to arrive at before school club and the last to leave.

Career-wise I have had to pass many interesting opportunities and projects. I stayed with the firm simply because I get to work from home. A massive benefit for me even though the company is not a great firm to work for. Moving to a better paid job/company would be very difficult because of the childcare issues during school holidays etc.

My career has definitely stalled as a result of being a single dad. But I'm lucky that I earn a good salary and I get to see my kids each day so I cannot grumble.

What I've learned is it's all about compromise. What's the point in having a high flying career with lots of money and power if your kids don't know you?

Bellyjaby · 10/09/2012 15:50

I've noticed more and more dad's doing the nursery run as time goes on at our nursery. My OH says he's noticing at work that they seem to be more flexible on dad's time than mum's. He reckons its because mums tend to have applied for flexible working, and are the ones who tend to leave when the kids are ill, so the bosses are harsher on letting them move their times by 5-10 mins. Dads on the other hand don't as often have the flexible arrangements in place so the bosses are fine with them coming a little late and leaving a little early for a few days a week. My work were like that too. May not be the case everywhere.

BeeBee12 · 10/09/2012 15:53

I will say I see loads of dads pick up and drop off at school or nursery.Most do it on a regular basis here at least part of the week.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 10/09/2012 16:02

Thats interesting....the stats don't seem to back it up though....

it is far far more common for the person being phoned when the kids need taking home from school early to be the working mum than the working dad. And it goes without saying that most SAHP are female.

OP posts:
amillionyears · 10/09/2012 16:04

I know of dads who do the school run in the morning,and then go to work at 10am and leave around 7pm
And the mums get to work early and leave to do the afternoon school run and do the bath and bed routine etc.
Not ideal from a marriage or partnership point of view,but not so bad from a child and career point of view.

BeeBee12 · 10/09/2012 16:09

We have just as many dads done as first contact as we do mums. I do think when its illness employers know they have to so it doesnt matter who does it.

Balderdashandpiffle · 10/09/2012 16:10

Once I become a single-dad my career pretty stalled.
That's for the last six years.

I'm seen as not flexible.

Numberlock · 10/09/2012 16:11

How can men go about balancing late meetings or foreign business trips with having to pick children up from school or nursery

Piss myself. The men at the top of my organisation would probably struggle to pick their kids out in a crowd, neither mind at nursery.

But it's best not to get me started on this whole topic.

Ephiny · 10/09/2012 16:12

I don't think men can have it all any more than women can. The more time you spend at work, the less time you have with your children, that's the same for all parents.

crazygracieuk · 10/09/2012 16:16

No. A man can't do things like ask for flexible working as a result of having a child, take paternity/parental leave, not come into work or ask for time off because of childcare issues the way a woman could.

A man who said that he had to leave the office to collect a child, couldn't stay longer than his contracted hours would be seen as someone who lacked ambition and drive.

Of course it's not fair but it seems to be the way.

The men who seem to have the best career-family blend are self-employed and pick their jobs around family. This is based on the fathers and grandfathers that I see at school pick off time. My neighbour is a builder and does the school run in the morning and afternoon about 3days in 5.

Kayano · 10/09/2012 16:16

My DH works his days and no more as he wants a good family life

Means he probably won't get promoted but that's his sacrifice

I've dropped 2 days - I prob won't get promoted either

This was based purely on salary alone. If I earned more I would stay full time

TruthSweet · 10/09/2012 16:20

DH has to take time off to look after me/the children and I am a SAHM.

In the last two weeks he has taken me to a cons. appt twice, taken the children to school as I wasn't well enough to, then taken me for blood tests and then dealt with the aftermath of a seizure until his mum could come to take over while looking after our 2y and working from home.

His work luckily is very flexible but it does mean he has to be flexible too and work over his hours/take calls late at night/deal with problems over the weekend or when on AL/travel for work/do things that aren't strictly anything to do with him or his dept. He doesn't mind though as the firm is local enough to us, they pay a reasonable wage and they are good enough to not penalise him when he has to drop work to deal with me/one of the children.

He does manage to have it all but I do wonder the toll it is taking on him. Life would be so much easier if he didn't have to deal with my epilepsy or the DCs multiple health problems on top of work!

Bellyjaby · 10/09/2012 16:26

Numberlock - a friend of mine is a PA to a high up manager in a large company and is pregnant. He asked her why she seems tired all the time, and she said "because I'm in the later stages of pregnancy". He responded that he didn't see how that was relevant to anything. He has 3 kids, but must have been seemingly oblivious to what his wife went through at the end of her pregnancies!

Numberlock · 10/09/2012 16:30

Belly Funny you should say that, I've had a recent promotion, someone said to me that my new (male) boss would understand my private situation as he also has 3 boys.

I bet his wife can count on the fingers of no hands the last time he went to a parents meeting, took them to football practice, doctor, dentist etc etc.

OP - define what you think these career men mean by "having it all". With the kind of senior male managers I work with, they think they win dad of the year just be remembering their child's birthday.

domesticgodless · 10/09/2012 16:39

My xH insists on 50:50 residence (because 'that is fair'), and had the financial clout to pretty much force it on me. He is a barrister, and has the boys 4 nights per week at the moment since I try to fit all my weeks' ft work into 3 days at my university. Then, I can spend proper time with the boys on 'my' days eg full day in holidays or pick up from school during term.

The boys recently commented that 'we spend more time with you than we ever do with dad, mum'. This is because xH employs a nanny from 8-7. Thus he basically only spends Sundays with them. My eldest who's 9 and noticing these things is now asking to spend weekday nights with me rather than basically alone with the nanny; he says a lot of nights 'dad is late' ie back at 8 literally in time to tuck the boys in!!

He moans constantly about the expense of the nanny but even has her on standby for TWO DAYS A WEEK i.e. when I have them. Since on the odd day when I do have to teach on Thurs or Fri or have a conference, he cannot take time off or make off the cuff arrangements.

So there you have it- men can appear to have it all/do it all but the truth is a woman's often doing it for them. (This of course is also the case for some professional mothers; but as men are usually in those sort of jobs it's still a gendered thing on the whole).

BeeBee12 · 10/09/2012 16:47

I think career type men and woman often only have kids as its the done thing and what everyone does and then outsource a lot of it if its both parents then with nannies or the dad then the kids get left with mum.

Totally different to just being a normal working mum or dad who usually are still family orientated and want to do as much as they can with their children.

Numberlock · 10/09/2012 16:54

Well said Bee.

DuelingFanjo · 10/09/2012 16:55

The default is that women sacrifice their holidays/careers/time off to do the childcare and the wife work (wife work being dental appointments, collecting sick children from nursery/school, attending meetings about their children's work/health/development, sports days, dry cleaning, clothes shopping, children's parties, sporting events/clubs, dropping off at grandparents houses, being there to have the kids collected) - too long have women (even wohm women) been left with all of this extra work that having children involves. Men have traditionally continued working and not felt the need or the pressure to involve themselves in this kind of care-work.

For sure things need to change, for sure employers should be allowing men to take part in these things. Perhaps then men will start wanting to do it more as well as being able to do it more.