AIBU to expect to be able to pay landlord part rent?

[KindnessofStrangers]

Myself, DD and DH are being evicted from our rented home as the landlord has sold the property. We have had a couple of months of stress with regards to moving and have had people come and view the house. Throughout this we have been extremely accommodating. We have now found somewhere to move to but need to move in mid month to get the property. We have asked the LL if we can give part payment of 20 days for that month so we are not doubling up on rents. This has given them six weeks notice but by law we would need to end the tenancy a day before rent is due so would by law owe a full month.
We have asked the LL to negotiate with us to come to an agreed fee but they have point blank refused and said they are surprised we would even ask this. They have said it is our 'choice' to move out mid-month, which seems a joke as they have evicted us.

We will lose about £350 if this happens. As the house has been sold the LL will recoup his 'loss' when the house is sold.

AIBU to expect them to at least negotiate with us and have some sympathy for a family they have removed from their home? I feel so frustrated I could cry.

hairy I did say that earlier up the thread and apologised for using the word evicted. The fact that 'I have no right' is exactly my contention, considering the circumstances, I am currently composing a letter to my local MP.

Should add not about my specific circumstances but in regards to private tenants rights in general.

I suppose what you could do is leave some stuff, hang onto keys etc so it is not truly vacant whilst you are paying rent. Don't forget you are still liable for utilities, council tax etc until end of tenancy agreement.

Totally frustrating but he sounds as if he is being a total pita :(

Approach the new landlord to ask to move in a week later. Try to get the current landlord to agree a move one week early.

Both LL's should take a commercial view on this if they have any business acumen.

It's not as simple as the rights of tenants though. There needs to be reform to protect BOTH sides- tenant and LL.
There have been horror stories on here about tenants who trash houses, withold rent or refuse to move and the LL can easily end up thousands out of pocket or risk losing his home because he can't pay the mortgage without the rent. Current legislation does a disservice to both sides.
I know you're looking at this from the perspective of the tenant ATM op, but tbh I do think it's a bigger issue. If you try to imagine at some point in the future, if you ever get a mortgage and buy a house and subsequently get moved for work and have to rent I out, I'm sure you would be a very reasonably LL (because you know what it's like to be at the mercy of an unreasonable one) but imagine how you'd feel if you had tenants who wouldn't move, wouldn't pay rent and wrecked your house?
The law needs reform for sure

janey Further up the thread I did say law needs reforming on both sides. I am not, however going to write to my MP discussing my LL's rights because in this particular set of circumstances they seem to hold all the cards.
I have never not paid rent or wrecked a house, I am a good tenant and I'm just asking for a little in return.

And I am doing everything in my power to move so they have vacant possession for sale but can't afford to pay double rent in the process. I am going to speak to the other EA this morning to see if there is any room for manoeuvre in their move in date.

I think you need to discuss your moving date with your new landlord tbh. From the way I see it you arranged a move in date knowing the date of your end of tenancy, and now expect your old landlord to comply with what you have arranged.

I don't think its fair to complain that your landlord is asking for what is due to him, or for him to shoulder the whole loss. Your new landlord is being equally 'inflexible' in that case, and you made the agreements. Perhaps propose a three way split with you all taking on £110 loss?

I honestly think your old landlord is getting a very rough ride here.

I'd tell him that you can't afford to move out in that case and so he will need to issue you with a formal S21 notice. He won't want to do that, it will mean you wouldn't be out in time for the sale, so he'll probably reconsider.

He is being greedy and silly IMO. You could be leaving on the last day of the previous rental month and then he'd get even less rent and its not like he will be able to let it to anyone else for that last month, is it. If I was him I'd jump at getting a 'bonus' fotnight's rent out of you!

I realise it is a very small amount of time but would you be any better off to move out next month and stay with family/friends for a fortnight? I had to put a 4 bed house worth of posessions into storage recently, it cost £39 a week.

Your tenancy agreement will probably say that you need to allow access for viewings, etc.

I agree that you should try to get the new landlord to agree to a moving date 14 days into the future. Tell the EA that you cannot afford double rent, and your current landlord demands rent to the end of the lease.

I have just gone through exactly the same, and had to swallow a very bitter pill. As long as they have the law on their side in regards to this, they are unlikely to budge. Your only leverage is that a 21 has not been served, so legally you have the right to remind in the property (and pay rent) until 2 months after a proper formal notice has been served.

If the new landlord is unwilling, you can suggest to your current landlord (if you want to):

Dear Landlord, I dont mean to be difficult and I understand your situation in wanting to sell the house and that you require my rent to cover mortgage payments until the property has been sold.

I have now trouble securing my new property in this time frame, as I will be short for rent because the new landlord wants the lease to start mid month, which means I have two rents to pay.

It has come to my attention that I have not been served with a formal notice 21, which is required by law when giving a tenant notice. In order to solve the financial problem for both of us, may I suggest you serve a proper section 21 notice, which will give me 2 months to find a new property and adjust our moving date accordingly to tie in with the end of the lease as per the formal notice. This way I wont have to pay double rent, and you get rent paid until the end of the tenancy.

I know it is a real pain, this will mean it is another two months until we vacate the property, but neither of us will suffer any financial hardship this way.

Kind Regards,
Kindness

ohThe It is next month we want to move out, the LL will have had six weeks notice but as that doesn't fall on the day before the rent is due I will owe money at present. We have paid a holding fee, had references etc done on new place as well so would be a lot of hassle to let it all fall through, but at the same time I can't afford to pay double rent, utilities. I just feel very stuck as I have very little choice unless I'm prepared to suffer financially.

You need to weigh up the total loss in the situation, and be prepared to suck a few lemons.

Your best bet is getting new landlord to agree to a later moving in date. He does not want to re market the property!

My understanding was a tenant only ever had to give one month notice. Landlords have to give two months notice because it is more distruptive having to find a home than having to find a new tenant.

If the landlord has not given you a section 21 notice then you can refuse to move. Your landlord can only legally evict you when you have not paid rent for 60 days.

You even have a case to sue for illegal eviction. You could sue your landlord for compensation.

Actually the law is on the side of the tenant. The difficulty is that most tenants cannot afford a decent lawyer who specialises in tennacy law. The only advantage a landlord has is wealth.

You cannot evict a tenant by email. Your landlord should send a section 21 notice by special delivery.

Frankly your landlord is an idiot. A different set of tenants might trash the house if they were treated so badly.

Doesn't matter what the TA says, you don't have to allow access for viewings etc.

If you do end up having to pay rent for the full month, I'd refuse the greedy doodah any access to the property and keep the keys. After all, as long as you are paying the rent, it is your home.

If he needs the rent to pay the mortgage, what is going to do if you move out at the end of the previous month and leave him a whole month's rent down??

You are under obligation to allow access for viewings etc if the contract states so, as otherwise you would be in breach of contract, and the landlord will have the law on his side to make it unpleasant, and use as leverage. Also, you dont want to escalate the conflict.

You can however make it difficult. By law the landlord is required to give 2 days written notice, when you have the written notice, you can make it difficult by saying you are away until next week, can only make it after 5 pm, etc. Or only before 9, suggest a few mornings, and make them sweat to fall in with your schedule. They cant just demand a date, if it is inconvenient for you, you refuse and suggest something else. A week later, 8 am, 9 am, or 6pm, etc, which you know is going to be inconvenient.

actually you are not under obligation to allow access for viewings. No matter what the contract says, the right to quiet enjoyment of the property supercedes any contractual obligations. You are only legally obliged to allow access for certain kinds of emergencies, nothing else.

Yeah but all he could do about a breach of contract is serve a section 21! Plus there is an argument that insisting on allowing viewings is an unfair contract term that wouldn't be enforceable anyway.

YANBU, however you need to refer to what's in the Housing Acts, and the 1988 Act says that you give notice to the term date (when you pay your rent, usually 1st of month). The LL is being a pain, but not doing anything outside of the Housing Acts.

term date is the anniversary of the tenancy start date, not the day rent is due. They're not necessarily the same date.

(not hugely relevant to the thread, but a common misconception)

So, being thick here, if the landlord won't agree, does that mean that in effect you are renting two properties, albiet briefly?

Turn that to your advantage and get the new place clean and ready before you move properly.

And I would be a little awkward about further viewings (measuring-up etc)

nanny Yes we would have two properties but unfortunately would be paying for two as well.

I have spoken to the EA of the new place and they have said they don't think there is any room for negotiation as the new LL will be out of pocket. I have emailed the LL explaining the situation and asking for a discussion so that we can come to a compromise so that they don't lose their buyer and we don't lose the new property.

KindnessofStrangers, you are in a horrible situation. You do have rights, but it must feel a bit like a David and Golliah situation.

Tell you landlord that since you have not been given a proper section 21 notice in writing and that you are not moving. If your landlord chooses to give you notice to look for a new propery then you expect 8 weeks notice as stated in the contract. Ie. if your landlord chooses to be a pain then you as a tenant can be even more of a pain. You could dig your heels in and insist that you are not moving until PROPER notice is given. You can even ask for compensation if your landlord wants you to move sooner.

Your landlord then risks losing the sale if he has a tenant in situ. He risks thousands of pounds for the sake of being mean about a couple of hundred quid.

It is not easy to evict a tenant. It requires a proper court case. Landlords cannot do just as they like. It would be a sod for the landlord to evict you if you stayed beyond your notice period. (I wouldn't recommend you stay beyond your notice period)

The worse that could happen is that the court awards the landlord costs. You could refuse to pay the costs and be lumbered with a county court judgement for 5 years. (Making it next to impossible to get any kind of credit card or loan)

Judges are sympathetic to tenants. No judge wants to make small children homeless. However you would need to turn up to any court hearing to argue your case.

Your landlord wants you out the property but has not given you proper notice. You have found somewhere else suitable to live and your landlord will not release you for the contract. He wants his cake and eat it. His unreasonable behaviour has led to you losing the property and now you are enforcing your rights to proper notice as otherwise you and your children will be homeless.

I suspect the LL would view it that he's not being unreasonable Because the tenant could have arranged a different start date for the new tenancy. He is being rather arsey about it, but he's not doing anything illegal- he just wants the tenant to abide by the terms of the contract. The op described him as 'thick' earlier for serving notice by email rather than a section 21, but he may well have assumed this was a "friendly" way of ending the tenancy. It certainly shows that every LL should always issue a section 21, however reasonable the tenants appear to be, to ensure things are resolved as speedily as possible.

I wouldn't advise the tenant in this Situation to end up in court as a CCJ to their name will screw things up for the future. I would suggest either try again with the LL, or see if the new LL is willing to rearrange the start date. If both are a no go then check the Terms of the contract next time and put it down to experience

The landlord didn't give proper notice that he wanted Kindness out. But on the back of an email, she's found a new place to live, and she's given notice, so I think the whole Section 21 thing is a bit of a red herring.

Mind you, that's assuming you gave notice in the way your contract states, eg in writing rather than by email? If it was by email we're back to being in legal limbo.

But none of that makes any actual difference, because you're stuck with two properties. :(