To feel that many people achieve seniour positions at work through brute force rather than by talent?

[toptramp]

Apologies to all of those lovely people who have got to the top through talent and sheer hard work and who have amazing people skills. I admire you.

I have observed that there is a certain type of manager who achieves his or her role through being ruthless, competetive and domineering. Not necessarily talented. I have had a few managers who have had zero people skills and who are what I call bulldozers. They get to where they are through the sheer force of their 'personality'. My mum's ex boss was such a type; she was a bully who had everyone quaking in their boots.

My manager is lovely AND talented. Her people skills have got her where she is today. Other managers who i have had have not earned my respect at all because they lack all of these qualities.

And by brute force I don't mean hard work I mean er 'leadership skills'?
Not sure that being domineering makes for a good leader though.

I agree completely. Anyone exceptionally talented seems to be self employed, imo. They're not in the public sector (or in my patch anyway) that's for sure.

Yep I knew someone like that in a previous workplace. Not particularly talented, but a truly awful, nasty bully, who, it turned out, had been shagging the boss too!

No one liked her but no one ever dared to speak up to her.

Yanbu. Many senior people are immoral and bullies imo. You don't get to the top by being nice.

I think its worse in certain industries. Basing that theory on my own experience of course!

But when I worked in a bank, bullying was pretty much the norm, anything else was seen as weak and pathetic. Whereas in other jobs, ability and people skills seemed to count for more (although still came across a few psychopaths).

The expression 'shit floats' used to comfort me in some dark moments when I was wondering how on earth my useless ex-manager ever got to a senior position.

It takes a certain skill set to rise to the top. Talent is a big part of that, but so is what you are calling 'brute force'. However, I think of it as being assertive, opportunistic and driven (and to be fair, if they are in a large organisation then senior management must agree).

Talent alone is never enough to rise to the top IMO. I can understand why talented, but non-driven people whose careers have faltered because of that lack of drive would resent those for whom it has worked out.

I judge a good manager on what their staff do when they are not looking. If you get it right the business will run the same as when you are there. Staff working for ruthless managers think while the cats away the mice will play. In my field ruthless managers dont survive as no one supports them when things go wrong.

You forgot to mention furious arse licking.

I agree- seems so where I work anyway.
I'd much rather stay 'junior' and respected, as most of the senior staff have zero respect, from colleagues or their service users

In journalism, I've seen a lot of people promoted beyond their competence (the so-called Peter principle) and/or through longevity. Sadly, their subject knowledge/ experience didn't make them good, or even competent editors (if they were, it was because of other qualities they happened to have). However, that experience with the subject matter is crucial, for the person's credibility, and there's already a big management split at the top (editorial/commercial), so another split would be just too divisive.

I imagine there is a similar "credibility" requirement in a lot of industries.

And, of course, existing managers don't want to be shown up as heartless, bullying twats [delete as applicable]!

Urgh. My boss is a bully and an intimidator. She sacked a colleague of mine last week after many years of service and she was thoroughly gleeful about the whole thing whilst the colleague has effectively ended her career (about two years from retirement age so unlikely to get another job) on a kick in the teeth.

I'm seriously considering looking for another job because I do not want to be the next one in the firing line!

I suppose mice don't get noticed and large and loud lions do. I have a theory that those awful aggressive drivers who drive a certain brand of car are bosses too (probably need to be to afford the car) and got there by the similar methods of behaviour that they use in their driving skills.

?It has always seemed strange to me...The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.?

Steinbeck

It's human nature I'm afraid.

I am quite senior in my organisation, and would like to think that I got here through hard work and good interpersonal skills, but who knows?! I certainly didn't get here through brute force - being "the boss" is not something I particularly like, and it doesn't come easily to me. My manager isn't the ruthless, bullying type either.

However, I do think you need to be very ambitious and assertive to get right to the top. I think I have possibly reached a plateau in my career as I don't have the confidence to climb up the ladder any further. My boss says I am capable, my team tell me I'm a good manager, but there is definitely something lacking that holds me back - call it drive, call it killer instinct, call it self-belief. I don't know, but I haven't got it.