To try for a 3rd child in my circumstances...

[Wicks71]

Name changed.

I am becoming so indecisive that I can't see the wood for the trees sometimes. It's weird as professionally, I make decisions all the time, but I am becoming totally useless in my home life (where to live, schools etc). I realise that I am incredibly lucky and that this is a good dilemma to have so I hope I don't get too flamed for being self-indulgent but I just wanted to see what other viewpoints there are.

I've just turned 41. I have 2 children. At one stage I didn't think this was going to happen at all for us so I do count my blessings all the time. I had my eldest when I was 35 (after undergoing IUI after trying to get pregnant for several years) and I had my youngest at 38 - after undergoing 3 IUIs and 2 cycles of IVF. The 2nd cycle of IVF was a huge success (obviously! She's currently upstairs causing havoc) - and I have 4 frozen embryos. For the past year or so, DP and I have been going back and forward about trying for a 3rd. We've been going round in circles - basically torn between head (counting our blessings with the 2 we have and quitting whilst we are ahead, our age etc) and heart (a BABY!). We'd kind of decided that we were going to leave it - well not really "decided", but the fact that we couldn't make a decision to take the plunge was meaning that by default we weren't doing it, if you see what I mean. But neither of us could let it go and it's occupies a huge part of our head space. The good (or bad?) thing is that we both feel pretty much the same and so it's not a case of one of us desperately wanting another child and the other being reluctant - but it does mean that we've been going round in circles somewhat.

A bit factor for me is age - I'm 41. Part of me thinks its too old but part of me thinks that in this day and age it really isn't. What's the general view on that?

We wouldn't try naturally - it's not worked for us in the last 10 years and also we have the 4 frozen embryos sitting there. Whilst I don't feel a huge moral obligation to absolutely give one of the 4 frozen embryos a chance of life (I mean that the fact that they are there isn't the deciding factor in itself), I do feel that if I am going to try for a 3rd, I should go down that route and give one a chance.

I think that because I'm one of 3 children myself, then it feels like the right number for me. We do have practical considerations about 3 (might need to move house - though we might have to do that anyway, it would probably mean ruling out private schools etc) but none of those seem to be the determining factor in themselves. I'm not massively hung up on private schools - DP was veering in that direction (for kids from age 7 or 11) but last night we both said that we thought it would be mad to let that dictate whether we gave our kids a sibling. I work part-time and would probably continue to do so if I had a 3rd child.

I would say that my biggest concern is my age. I worry about being not only too old to have another kid but also (just to be really morbid!) about being an old mum for them further down the line - ie how long will I be around. A neighbour died last year in her early 40s leave 3 under 4s. I plan to be around longer that that (hopefully!), but it did drive home to me that when they are in their 20s, I'd be in my 60s etc. So different to my mum who had my sister at 21 and all 3 of us by the time she was 29. Am I obsessing too much about numbers?

On the flip side - the 2 year old daughter of one of my closest friends died a couple of years ago - I've been at her side throughout and it's inevitably shaped me too - she says that she feels like a victorian mum now and wants as many as she can. I do now think that if something happened to one of my kids, they'd be on their own. These 2 situations are having a bit impact on my thinking.

Sorry, I've rambled a lot now. As of last night, we are thinking "fuck it", we are going to go for it.

My sister took the plunge a few years ago and had a 3rd at 41 (after having her first 2 in her early/mid 30s). She deliberated over the decision for a bit and ironically says that it was something I said that helped make up her mind to go for it - ie that you might regret not doing it but you are unlikely to regret doing it. Easy to say when it's someone else I'm advising! Should I take the same advice myself?!

I think you should have the conversation HeartsJandJ - see how he feels.

DP has texted me (in response to my jokey "scared" comment) that we don't have to do it if I don't want to and I'm not under any pressure - we are as bloody bad as each other! We need to just get cracking on it.

Interestingly I read this report today re a study on frozen embryos (please note that I'm reading the The Guardian now - not the Daily Mail!)

www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/sep/04/ivf-embryos-frozen-healthier-babies

I don't know if this helps but my mum was 41 when I was born, my dad was 45. They were definitely older than other people's parents (it was the 70s and not very common then) but it was never a problem. They say we kept them 'young'.

They may not be as hands on as other people's parents when it comes to helping with the children but I wouldn't swap them for the world. My dad is now 83 and was rugby tackling my 6 year old on the beach to show him how it's done. Priceless

My only regret is that I'm unlikely to have them for another 20 years and they probably won't see what sort of adults my children turn into but then if mum hadn't had me at 41 I wouldn't be here, would I?

That is helpful HappySeven - good to hear an experience from the opposite side, as it were. I guess that it's not as rare as in the 70s either is it.

I do worry about not being around when my children have children etc but that's kind of already the case with having them in my late 30s and also, as you say, if I hadn't had my children when I had them, then they wouldn't be in existence - it's not like I would have had my actual children if I'd kids in my 20s.

I feel like my brain is going to explode with it all!

My mum had me at 30 and died when I was 22. Some women leave much younger children, having had them at a young age. There are no guarantees in life.

Often when people post wavering about whether to go for a 3rd child they sound as though theyre perhaps trying to fill a gap in their life which should be filled by other things. Very often they seem to have 2 older children and are yearning the lost baby years.

Your post comes across differently- you seem to have really thought this through, you won't have a massive age gap and you actually have embryos. I would go for it!

LucieMay - you are right - anything could happen. I think I just wish I were younger - but it is what it is. I either do it or don't but I can't change the age that I'm at.

janey68 - I think that's right. In fact, it's almost the opposite - one of my reservations is the prospect of going through the really young baby stage again. In some ways (though I do love a snuggly newborn!) I'd fast forward to a 2 year old.

I'm having the scan tomorrow but that doesn't commit me to anything - and then I'm seeing the fertility clinic counsellor the next day so hopefully that will help give me some clarity. I think we are going to do it - but I want to try to iron out some of the niggles in my head. It's probably just in my nature to worry about whether I'm doing the right thing though - whichever path I chose.

When we went to see the fertility consultant last November and gave ourselves till the end of the year to make a decision (some chance!) part of the motivator was that if we were having this one shot (well, possibly 4) we might as well wait till the January and aim for a baby born early in the school year. That sounds insane to me when I say it outloud and it certainly wasn't a consideration when trying to get pregnant over all the years that it took us to have our two (nor would be now if we were just trying naturally), but we needed time to think and if it was a one shot opportunity then it made sense to wait that month and to try in the new year. Now that that ship has sailed as we couldn't make our bloody minds up (plus I got stretchered off a mountain and ended up on crutches for months!), I don't think I'd factor in the same consideration now - I don't want to be any older than I am now!

I might have another chat to my sister about having a baby at 41. She had such a different experience to me though. She got pregnant with her first 2 children in the first month of trying each time and then with her 3rd baby (at 41) it took her the grand total of 2 months (as you can imagine my sympathy at it not happening in the first month was not particularly high, when compared to my years of trying!). She also had straightforward water births for all 3 (I say straightforward rather than easy - as I don't imagine it was easy!). She wouldn't be without her little girl - she's 3 1/2 now. Her other kids were older than mine though and I think that with her it was more of a case of not wanting to let go of the baby years. Her boys were both at school and more independent whereas I still have a toddler.

I was in the park today and was eyeing up pregnant women trying to work out their ages. I need to get a grip!

Sounds like you've made your decision but I read a blogger who said she & her husband decided to have a 4th after writing down every day for a month whether on that particular day they wanted a 4th. At the end of the month they totted it up & the 'ayes' won it.

It took me five years to persuade DH to have baby number 3 because for me two were not enough. For us a third meant making different choices than we would have made with two children eg we moved out of London to a grammar school area.

As soon as DD3 was born I knew I was done and I have never regretted it for a second. I think you know that you are not done yet and for that reason I would go for it (although I am 41 now and DD3 nearly 5 and could not begin to envisage having another one now - but then DD1 is 12 and so we are a long way from the baby stage, it's probably not to do with my age). Lots of my friends are still trying for or having babies at 41, it is fairly common nowadays.

I had the same complication as you in my second C-section (was v relieved to get catheter out and bladder Ok etc!), also problems with the scar coming apart during the (attempted VBAC) birth. I requested a follow-up appointment with an obstetrician to talk about the risks of a third to-term pregnancy, which was v helpful, and he wrote to me afterwards confirming the info.

He said the main risks of pregnancy after two C-sections were problems with the placenta (in particular placenta acreta) and scar rupture (which is rare, but dangerous to both mum and baby if it does happen). Risks were not so high he'd advise against it, but higher than generally, and would need to have doctor-led care.

Another risk is asherman's syndrome, scarring causing (usually early) miscarriage. I had 4 mcs between DC1 and 2, don't know the reason for sure, had some drugs and thankfully had Dd2.

In your shoes I would think about the risks - we would've loved three, but have decided not to push our luck due to the risks of problems in later pregnancy and fear of further mcs. Others would take different decision am sure.

also worth considering what you'd do if one SET failed, or you miscarried, would you try 4 times? Only once, twice, what if you and DH disagreed about having another try? With ttc after mc we agreed to discuss each time what we'd do next, and luckily neither of us got to the point when we wanted to stop trying. I also found counselling (alone) helpful.

I would go for it, you will never regret having the 3rd children but may regret not having a try.

Never been through ivf so don't know how the process is emotionally, but wish you all the best.

Dozer - that's interesting that you had the same complication - thanks for your insight.

DP and I have both worked ourselves into a fret about it today as to whether what we are contemplating is the right thing. I've sent him the link to this thread (hello!) and am going to see if he can come along to counselling. Whilst it's good in a way that we think the same way about it all - it does mean that neither of us are being decisive.

I've also spoken to my sister who brushed off the age related issues (she didn't have any worries about that at all herself), and says she has no regrets, but did say that the leap from 2 to 3 has been huge - not because of her age - and painted quite a hard picture about that.

Thanks for all your advice.

Firstly, think birdsgottafly message very odd! What is mumsnet if not a place to canvass opinion? Secondly, I am in a very similar position, 40 yrs old, had my 2nd DD November 2011, and really don't feel like I am done, neither does my husband, we are both one of three, we have had 3 miscarriages whilst trying for DD1 and DD2, so relate to poster who said fertility issues can make you even more determined to have more children. The financial practicaL
Reasons to not go for third don't hold much weight for me, however the heAlth risks to me and any future baby do worry me with respect to my age. Having read this thread though I am more inclined to just go for it!! Good luck with your decision let us know how you get on.

I had DS at 42 after 4 years of trying / miscarriages. I worry that I will be 60 when he's 18 but there are quite a few mums in their 50s with youngish children so he won't be the only one. What will be will be.

I'm a bit younger than you (just turned 33) but we have just been soul searching about having a second child.

Dh was very keen, I not so sure.

In the end I realised that that month I was fairly (although not completely - I've only just given up breastfeeding and my cycle is a bit of a mess) sure that I had already ovulated that month. So we started trying knowing that it almost certainly wouldn't work.

When at the end of the month we found I wasn't pregnant I was sad (rather than relieved) so we are now trying properly. (As of last night! )

Are you using contraception at the moment? Could you stop? I know the odds for you must be teeny but if you did get pregnant then it really would be "meant to be". And if you don't then you would have a much clearer idea how you feel about it.

It's the Russian Roulette way of making a decision!

Every day you don't do it, you are getting older. If that is the main consideration for holding off, then you should just go ahead and do it today. Goodluck, if all else fails, get a dog, it sort of grounded our family! We live away from family support, we're older and decided to count our blessings and stick to two, but we would have really liked four. Do we regret it? Kind of and kind of not. Sorry, not very helpful.

So still prevaricating. Two nights ago (the night before I started this thread) we were minded to go for it. Last night we both had a major volte face on that and were completely panicking at the idea. Tonight - we are somewhere between the 2 (our resting state for the last year!). It's weird - we both are in exactly the same frame of mind about it all. It would be easier in many ways if one of us was gung ho about doing it or conversely very much against the idea.

Scan today was fine - I could go ahead this month if I wanted. I'm hoping the counsellor tomorrow will help order my thoughts a bit. I've been writing a pros and cons list in advance and then DP and I are going to sit down and discuss it properly tomorrow and who knows, maybe make a decision!

I have to say - the "cons" list is longer. The pros is very much - that I have always liked the idea of 3 (not least being one of 3 myself), that I think it would be good for my kids to have another sibling (especially being there for each other when older) and that I worry I'd regret not doing it - particularly worried about something happening to one of mine (not that they are replaceable, but more that they wouldn't be on their own if I had another), oh and that it would be A BABY! And I love my kids - we seem to make rather cute ones!

The cons range from the fact that we should count our blessings and stop (quit whilst we are ahead, with 2 healthy kids), to age issues (health implications, being an old mum, longevity issues - ie how long would I be around etc) c-section issues (complications/risks), practical issues (money, house, car school), time/attention for each (I work too and already am spreading myself thinly), lack of patience/tiredness, stress on relationship etc. Well, there's my list to discuss tomorrow!

I know that if I was 5 (or even 2 or 3) years younger, I'd go for it. I also know that if the embryos weren't sitting there - then I wouldn't be considering trying for a 3rd naturally or by a fresh IVF cycle.

Why not try making the decision for a month and seeing how it sits. If you decide to go for it next month, you'll have time to cancel.

Looking at your list is a lesson in why pro/con lists sometimes bring stalemate. Each point needs some kind of weighting which is impossible to quantify and maybe one heart point is enough to discount 10 head points.

One thing though: a couple of your cons stood out. Time and patience. Can you imagine making further changes after a new baby that would help if they remained a concern? That might be a tipping point.

I'm going to go against the grain here and am shocked at how many say just go for it. Personally I wouldn't have a baby over 35, not least because of health implications (higher risk mc, more difficult preg and birth, more chance of abnormalities etc) but also to think about how the actual baby will feel having such older parents. My mum had me quite late and I hated having old parents, it was so much more difficult to relate to them etc as they are just that much older and just didn't 'get' things. Not to mention that they won't have you around for as long as they probably want, or to be young grandparents to their children. I'm not saying that this is the case all the time but it is something to consider.
Also how it will impact you, if you say you're already not a tidy/organised person no.3 will add another persons mess and washing to the equation.
I know a lot of women leave having babies til later in life now but that doesn't mean its 'right'. You will find that younger mothers usually have easier births/labours, less stretch marks and will ping back in their jeans much quick because unfortunately that is what nature intended.
I hope this gives another perspective. Good luck with whichever decision you make, only you can know what feels right for you.

'I know a lot of women leave having babies til later in life now but that doesn't mean its 'right'.'

So women who weren't able to find a suitable partner willing to parent with them until they're 35 should just not have children?

My easiest conception and birth was when I was 37.

I used to say I wouldn't have a baby over 35, too. When I was foolish and time was on my side. I ate my words. Twice.

I agree with Gentleness, leave it for a month and revisit.

Scubastevie not "pinging back into your jeans" is hardly a reason not to have a child.
Where my ds has just started school, most of the women dropping off are clearly well into their thirties.

to scubastevie - not every women chooses to have kids late so less of the silly assumptions please. I married at 32 having been declared infertile at 27. After a surprise impossible pregnancy discovered only when we had an early miscarriage, it took 3 years and 2 further miscarriages before we had our son. I was 35 then. My pregnancies have been much, much easier than those of some friends who were 5 to 15 years younger. And deliveries. And breastfeeding. I'm tough enough and have experience enough to deal with the challenges anyway. That's a great thing age gives you.

It's sad that your life experiences have been so limited that you are still unaware that women over 50 can be way more interesting, remarkable and useful than women 30 years younger. Don't feel sorry for my kids, they've got the benefit of my years and acquired sense that will help them avoid being defined by other people's assumptions. And I don't think I'll be bringing them up to truly care about the size of anyone's jeans....

Here, here, Gentleness!

I wasn't saying anyone should do anything, I gave my personal opinion about what I and only me, would do.
And of course some people don't 'choose' to have them later in life, that's just the way it goes really, I didn't say they all did.
I also gave my personal account of having older parents, as have others, just to give a another view.
What I was trying to say about easier births etc (weird how the jeans thing stood out) was something like, don't they say you're body best copes with pregnancy when you're young. However, this does not mean women older than this do not have easier births etc, as you have pointed out gentleness.
However I don't believe it's a silly assumption to say a lot of women (this does not mean all) leave children til later - i think this is quite well documented.
As I said I was giving another view that goes against the grain, I don't feel sorry for anyone's children but I am allowed to have my own opinion.