AIBU or are they a bunch of bigots?

[PrettyFlyForAWifi]

I started a new job a few months ago and I've been pretty shocked by some of the opinions that are freely aired by my colleagues. To set the scene, it's a fairly deprived area which historically was predominantly populated by white working class people. In the last 5-10 years the area has become much more multicultural and has a high proportion of new immigrants.
My colleagues routinely and openly discuss their views on immigration which revolve around the themes of 'they shouldn't be allowed in', 'they don't work', 'why should hey get free housing' etc etc, ad nauseum. One colleague whom I have the misfortune to work closely with refers to Asian people as 'browns'.
I'm appalled by this, especially in the profession in which I work, and I feel really angry at having to listen to all this shit day after day. I haven't voiced my objections much as when I've tried to reason that not all immigrants are unemployed dole scroungers I've been shouted down and I don't want to alienate myself further from my colleagues (they already think I'm 'posh'...I wish!) but I hate listening to it and I feel ashamed of myself for not having the courage to take them on about it.

I've only ever worked in places which have been multicultural and quite pc before and all this is new to me. AIBU or is this how people really think??

World Citizen

That's the point. How is it possible, that in a society like the British, which is known for its particular ways and manners in terms of not wanting to step on other people's toes, being polite, well-mannered, not making a fuss in public, not hurting other person's feelings unknowingly, not wanting to leave a bad impression, not being too emotional, not complaining too much or too loud in public etc.

It's possible because the above is years out of date, and even when there was some truth to it, it probably didn't apply to much of the population.

That does sound bad, OP. can I ask whatbpart of the country and what industry do you work in?

During the Civil Rights movement people were encouraged to use 'frown power'. Basically, whenever someone expresses racist or unacceptable views you should frown. You don't have to stand up to them, or get into debate, it's just a way of showing people that their views are not shared by you.

I'm a big fan of frown power! It does work. You'll feel better about yourself and they may well feel unsettle and more likely to think twice before expressing those views.

Put in a grievance to HR, if there is a HR team in your company and have it formally noted that you don't think the work atmosphere is professional.

It won't change their behaviour. It may even exacerbate it if they find out from the totally unprofessional like in my former employer HR team that you raised a grievance but you will feel better and if their unprofessionalism ever gets worse or turns into bullying, you can have it on record that you raised it as a concern.

That's my recommendation anyway from having worked in an office with colleagues who were similar to what your describe, including a racist white South African (Nelson Mandela was a terrorist apparently - who knew??)! I still shudder at the memories...

Oh, just noticed that you say you work for a small business, so there's no HR and management have a similar mindset.

In that case, I'd recommend either a.) leaving the job (I wish I'd left my job sooner. Working with ignorant bigots is injurious to your health) or b.) developing a good sense of humour to keep yourself sane. Make smart alec remarks whenever they share their bigoted opinions e.g. 'been reading the Daily Mail again, have we?' 'good thing we don't have any ethnic minorities working here or we'd have a discrimination case on our hands!' or 'yes, immigrants are sub-human scrounging scum. We should round them up and shoot the lot of them. Boris Johnson would be first up against the wall*'

• Plays the quintessential Englishman but has a very international background was born in New York so is technically an immigrant

Calling people "bigots" for being opposed to the level of immigration over the past decade is being unreasonable. People are entitled to feel aggrieved about it.

Napacap, is someone with a "very international background" really in a position to criticise normal working-class people who are angry and changes being made against their interests?

PrettyFlyForAWifi

I don't really have an HR, I'd have to go to the higher body and it would become a massive, whistle blowing scenario in which case I imagine I'd need to leave. They just act like I'm some woolly bleeding heart lefty liberal, whereas I think I'm normal and they're ignorant!

There was a case in the local paper recently of a young gay couple who had received abuse from some people in the town for holding hands and kissing in the high street. To which my reaction was "Why are you surprised". This was traditionally a white working-class area, and is still very white working class and isn't wealthy like the other towns in the area. Those views haven't been understood and resolved, they've been classified as 'Evil' and that's been an end to it.

The point I'm making is that while you can flit around telling everyone how you celebrate diversity and how immigration is great, and while the BBC and the Guardian reinforce your view of yourself as 'normal', in reality a huge swathe of the population has been marginalised and ignored by self-styled 'progressives'. Rather than understanding the objections to immigration, they are written off as 'ignorant' and 'racist'. What happens when you write off the views of a section of the population is that those views don't disappear, they fester.

Your views aren't "normal" amongst a huge swathe of the population, who are people you don't mix with for the most part.

Why don't you try understanding their point of view instead of sneering at how superior you are? Migrants compete with unskilled and semi-skilled working class people for places at good schools, jobs, access to healthcare, access to social housing and so on. Because migrants work for lower wages they force the price of labour down and force incomes down. Is it any wonder that there is resentment?

Who has a very international background? Boris Johnson?? Read my post properly. I'm talking about him, not me. And yes, if there's a reason to criticise someone, why would a person of any background not be allowed to voice their opinion?

I'd like to know who 'normal working class people' are as well by the way.

Everyone I know works for a living. I know ignorant morons who are rich and I know ignorant morons who are poor (I've met a lot of ignorant morons unfortunately, mainly through work...). I know tolerant, intelligent people on low incomes and ones on high incomes. Class is a state of mind and doesn't entitle anyone, rich or poor, to be racist or ignorant.

Being opposed to high immigration doesn't make you racist or ignorant. Sorry for misconstruing your post regarding Boris.

Being opposed to high immigration isn't racist or ignorant, that's true, but referring to Asians as 'browns' is and making assumptions about people ('they don't work, they're scroungers') because of how they look is.

One of my former colleagues, the South African, was an out-and-out racist who referred to mixed race people as 'coloured', despite being told this was offensive in the UK, and said she was scared of black people and couldn't engage with them. She wasn't a 'normal working class person' (whatever that is), just a racist. She opposed immigration too, ironically considering she was an immigrant herself, although had UK citizenship through her mother.

Coloured is a legal term in south africa I believe for people of mixed race.

I don't know about browns, but I can't see a problem with it if blacks and whites is acceptable.

From the description of where you work, I'm guessing it's an ALMO or similar? So a very small company which is contracted to a local authority but not under its direct control?

If that's the case, you're probably right, there would be no real recourse to HR - and in that kind of set up it would probably be massively counter productive too, setting up a them and us mentality, with you firmly aligned as one of them. It's possible an approach to a local councillor might be helpful, but that massively depends on the councillor and the approach they would take. A local newspaper would almost certainly not touch the story with a bargepole because of the libel risks unless a formal investigation was under way, in which case they would go to town with it.

I would go with the gentle approach suggested by some posters - the frown approach, correcting falsehoods, making jokes (although I very much doubt accusing of someone of reading the Mail would be understood as you mean it), and giving positive examples of immigration where appropriate.

I think flatpackhamster has a very good point in that a lot of valid concerns about immigration are automatically shouted down as racism. The examples you've given sound pretty racist rather than reasoned to me, but condemning without understanding is worse than doing nothing imo.

Sadly though, in your particular position I doubt you'll be able to make a huge amount of difference. If I was in the same position I would probably look for another job

NapaCab
I'd like to know who 'normal working class people' are as well by the way.

Well they're probably not the sort of people who say "Some of my best friends have jobs and sometimes we meet at this amazing Somalian cafe who make this guava and apple cake which is to die for, do you have the latest Boden catalogue, mwah mwah ciao see you in Klosters!"

Everyone I know works for a living. I know ignorant morons who are rich and I know ignorant morons who are poor (I've met a lot of ignorant morons unfortunately, mainly through work...). I know tolerant, intelligent people on low incomes and ones on high incomes. Class is a state of mind and doesn't entitle anyone, rich or poor, to be racist or ignorant.

There is a huge amount of ignorance surrounding immigration, on both sides of the argument. Plenty of bigots buy the Guardian.

Although actually, this reminds me of when I was temping in a homeless office of a local council during one of the first big wave of asylum seekers in the early noughties. The lead officer would wrinkle her nose in disgust whenever she had to interview one, then conduct her own interrogation as to the merits of their asylum application. As the right-on chippy graduate, I would constantly be challenging her attitudes, and actually it didn't make things that awkward.

Mind you, I'm not sure I changed their minds - particularly as it later transpired that several of the adult families had been "borrowing" the same baby to get out of grotty b&b and into a house/flat (the receptionist realised one day she recognised the baby she was cooing over).

What here might be actionable?

Well, in itself discussing and opposing immigration isn't, nor is discussing whether integration can be successful. (Good job really, or this thread would be actionable).

Spouting inaccuracies about housing waiting lists probably isn't actionable either, though should be corrected. I think this is (like dealing with something on a thread) something you have to tackle yourself as it arises. You say you're not making headway at present, but if no-one persist, then they will never become better informed. It's not an HR matter.

The name calling 'browns' is the only bit that looks actionable. This should be reported to your line manager, or that of the person using the term, in as specific terms as possible (time, date, exact context and third party witnesses). If they do not tackle this effectively, then you could push it under legislation. Your Union may be able to advise on this.

What's so interesting about this thread to me is that so many of the posters say 'report the ThoughtCrime!' as though reporting it will make the evil people stop thinking what they're thinking.

Flatpackhamster - my thoughts exactly ...

Thanks for your input everyone. Flatpack you raise some issues I'd been wondering about myself. Some of those I work with have (adult) children who stand no chance of getting a house of their own, even renting, so they are understandably resentful that immigrants appear to be given preferential treatment. That's why I posted here as I'm asking myself if I should be more tolerant of the comments that I perceive as racist? Incidentally I'm absolutely not sneering at my colleagues. I'm just trying to work through my feelings about listening to what my life experience informs me is bigotry and trying to reconcile this with the environment in which I now work. I've worked in my profession for well over a decade but mostly in either totally multicultural areas or in very PC ones where no-one would dream of voicing such opinions openly (which is not to say they didn't have them, of course). So this kind of attitude is new to me.
Leaving's not an option. I like my work, I like my clients, I just want to feel more comfortable in the workplace. At the moment I either say nothing when this talk goes on around me or I make an exit saying I need to get back to my desk.

I'm a bit worried about outing myself too much but suffice to say I work in a caring profession and one which is generally very multicultural.

flatpack I'm not necessarily wanting them to stop thinking like this. I'm wanting them to stop making me feel uncomfortable in my workplace by constantly airing these views that I think are at worst bigoted and at best unprofessional.

PrettyFlyForAWifi

flatpack I'm not necessarily wanting them to stop thinking like this. I'm wanting them to stop making me feel uncomfortable in my workplace by constantly airing these views that I think are at worst bigoted and at best unprofessional.

Why do these views make you feel uncomfortable? Is it because they're jarring with the views you've held elsewhere?

flatpack correct, I feel uncomfortable because I think they are being racist and I'm really dislike racial or ethnic discrimination, especially in a profession which is supposed to be caring. I feel that in my organisation you get a different attitude from certain staff if you are white, working class and local than if you are (say) black and don't speak great english. I'm uncomfortable that this attitude is so entrenched that it seems to be perfectly acceptable to air these views in the staffroom.

Flatpack, the op has said why she finds these view uncomfortable. From her posts, It appears to me that she works in a social care/social housing setting and her colleagues are discussing their service users in a derogatory way. This is, as she says, at best very unprofessional.

OP, I think It needs to be challenged at a higher level. The larger organisation will have procedures in place for dealing with your concerns and will investigate appropriately. It needn't turn into a huge whistleblowing exercise, unless of course, It Is deemed to be necessary.

In the meantime, I would distance myself as much as possible from getting drawn Into talking about it. If your colleagues persist in trying to engage you, tell them their views are offensive to you and unwanted and ignore.

I think we need to be careful not to brand people as racist purely on the basis they have issue with imigration.

I abhore racism and bigotry of any kind, but in a climate when we are being faced with spending cuts, and a massive housing shortage I think that it's not unreasonable to suggest that something needs to be done about the UK's imigration policy.

When the disabled here are having their benefits cut I think it is unreasonable that someone should be allowed to come and live here from abroad and claim benefits. That's not the fault of the individual - it's the fault of the system that allows it.

When there is a housing shortage I think it is unreasonable that people should be able to come here from abroad and take precedence on any kind of housing list - even if they are seeking asylum here. That's not the fault of the individuals - it is the fault of the system that allows it.

I grew up abroad and have therefore been an imigrant. The "these imigrants are comin over ere and takin our jobs" line is misguided, however it is not unreasonable to think that imigration is out of control here. It is not unreasonable to think that something needs to be done about our asylum policies to bring them more in line with other countries so that asylum seekers end up going to their nearest port of call rather than risking life and limb to come to the UK because it's common knowledge that we have far more lenient policies than anywhere else. That doesn't make anyone a racist or a bigot.

Thank you wannabe for putting that so well. That's exactly the distinction I was trying to grasp. Fine to hate the system, not fine to hate the individual.
I guess that if I look at it that they're expressing the former then it won't make me feel so bad. Good. I feel better! I'll leave that part of my post there then.
The 'oh it's another brown' comments do need to be addressed though. Not least because if a client overheard I don't want to be implicated. Is there any way of saying 'stop it you mad bint' which doesn't cause offence?!