Regarding Rape/Abuse and JW beliefs.

[TheQueenOfDiamonds]

My daughters fathers family are mostly Jehovahs Witness.
I have no major problem with this, However, the recent news headlines and some comments regarding certain religions prompted me to do a little research into the sort of advice my daughter may be given, and the morals and beliefs she may be exposed to.

So, I have been reading the watch tower website. I am not impressed with some of the advice given. Here are some examples, quoted from the watch tower website;

Should the battered wife leave her husband? The Bible does not treat marital separation lightly. At the same time, it does not oblige a battered wife to stay with a man who jeopardizes her health and perhaps her very life. The Christian apostle Paul wrote: "If she should actually depart,let her remain unmarried or else make up again with her husband." (1 Corinthians 7:10-16) Since the Bible does not forbid separation in extreme circumstances, what a woman does in this matter is a personal decision. (Galatians 6:5) No one should coax a wife to leave her husband, but neither should anyone pressure a battered woman to stay with an abusive man when her health, life, and spirituality are threatened.

"For one thing, in recent years women have entered the job market in record numbers. More women are therefore exposed to situations in which such abuses can occur. However, of even greater significance is what the Bible prophesied long ago: "Remember this! There will be difficult times in the last days. Men will be selfish, greedy, boastful, and conceited; they will be insulting . . . ; they will be unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce." (2 Timothy 3:1-3, Today's English Version) The prevalence of sexual harassment is just one dramatic proof that these words are being fulfilled today. Interestingly, an article inMen's Health magazine notes that "the increase in sexual-harassment complaints has been accompanied by an astonishing decline in general civility. Bad manners are everywhere.""

"NO WOMAN should have to run a daily gauntlet of sexual innuendo," says magazine editor Gretchen Morgenson, "but neither is it reasonable for women to expect a pristine work environment free of coarse behavior."

Dress modestly. What you wear sends out a message to others. Back in Bible times, wearing certain styles of clothing branded a person as being immoral or promiscuous. (Proverbs 7:10) The same is often true today; tight, flashy, or revealing clothing can attract the wrong kind of attention. True, some may feel they have a right to wear whatever they desire. But as writer Elizabeth Powell puts it, "if you worked among people who believed stealing money was okay, I'd tell you not to wear your billfold on your hip. . . .You have to recognize the sickness of . . . society's attitudes and try to protect yourself from being victimized by them." The Bible's advice is thus up-to-date. It admonishes women to "adorn themselves in well-arranged dress, with modesty and soundness of mind." (1 Timothy 2:9) Dress modestly, and you may be less likely to be a target of abusive speech or actions.

I have not given my thoughts, As i do not want to put a bias on the post, I am interested to see how many peoples responses match my concerns.

Would you be concerned about your child being taught and advised in this way?

Another example of putting the blame on the victim of rape for not dressing modestly. Just pertuating rape myths

Oh and to answer you question, i would have a problem with my child being taught that how much or how little clothing a woman wears has a direct ompact on the likelihood of her being raped/attacked

That's my biggest problem so far. I'm typing up an e-mail to him and i am struggling not to get VERY sweary about it.

Erm, I am not JW, but other than the 'dress modestly' thing, not much of this seems outrageous to me.

The Bible quotes yo give say that an abused wife should leave her husband, that nobody should encourage her to stay with him, but that she shouldn't remarry. This is because they believe in just one marriage, no divorce, no 2nd, 3rd marriages etc right? Not outrageous given their beliefs about marriage?

The rest says that the Bible predicts men will become brutish and that this is why they are harassing women more these days. Although my advice would be, wear what you like, it's their problem not yours, the JW advice seems to be keep a low profile.

It is all a little old fashioned and not very pc, but so are most religious beliefs.

can I just say, the text you've shared doesn't say anything about rape/attack, it seems to be referring to sexual harassment no?

Like I said, I'd say wear what you want and I happily flaunt a bit of cleavage when the fancy takes me. But, the fact is that with my cleavage on show, I AM more likely to received looks and comments than the girl in the turtle neck. Its a fact, its not right/fair, but its true.

I do have a "major problem" with the Jehovahs Witnesses. They are sexist, homophobic and bigotted beyond belief. They scour the bible for little soundbites to backup their own bigotted beliefs.

As long as you make sure your daughter has a clear picture of just how ridiculous JWs are then I'm sure she'll be fine. Have to admit I wouldn't want any of my children to have to be part of that pseudo religion

Thatisall - No, It says that she should either remain alone or make up with her husband. That is too close to what the abuser themselves say.

I have a problem with rape and assault and abuse being used as a way to prove what the bible says.

And it is written by americans, they classify all sexual attacks as sexual assault, hence the wording.

They let children die. That's my major problem with them.

Queen I'm not defending them! :-S I've just left the Catholic faith because they had (in my opinion) become a wee bit militant on the whole gay marriage situation and I don't think they are using the Bible to teach positive messages, which seems to be how you feel about this.

The whole marriage situation.....MOST religions will say that whatever the situation, you stay married, if one party injures the other you can leave but you cannot remarry. It isn't just JW.

And the suggestion that dressing modestly will help avoid unwanted attention....again that is taught in just about every religion the World over, though it's often given as a way to avoid the deadly sin of pride lol, rather than to avoid rape. I didn't read rape when I read this excerpt, I read it and thought sexual harassment.

What Im basically saying is that these JW teaching don't seem any different to Catholic, Islamic and a great many other religious teachings. I don't know about any of their other beliefs s I don't know any JWs and have never looked into it.
IF you aren't happy with it, you have to act.

"MOST religions will say that whatever the situation, you stay married, if one party injures the other you can leave but you cannot remarry."

Are you sure?

yeah....I think so ...:-S

I know that Church of England allow divorce and remarriages....but I'm not sure of others....I may be wrong....I didn't say all, I said most.
What I'm saying is that these statements aren't unusual, in religion.

Thatisall - I know you weren't, did I come across a bit defensive?

Its the overall messages it sends out that bug me. I'm not too knowlegable on other religions. I never got over my sunday school teacher refusing to answer my questions lol. I only know a fair bit about JWs because of DDs dads family. I'd never thought to look up there advice on abuse, assault and rape etc before.

The articles they are from cover domestic abuse and sexual assault (I will post links tomorrow, I'm on my phone now), but the term sexual assault covers rape in america.

I highlighted these paragraphs because it concerns me that they could lead a woman to doubt her actions, and believe that she must be encouraging the behaviour. Victims frequently read what they want to read, seeing them as confirmation of what their abuser tells them to be true.

I just have a big problem with my daughter being taught these things.

Twice I have been violated by men. I don't want my daughter to end up in my position because of teachings like this.

I've saved he email to work on tomorrow. I don't want to come across as hysterical. Partly because some of the other articles almost talk about women as though they are in a constant state of hysteria and not really aware of what a man is doing.

p.s.

Unlike thatisall I am definitely at my most attractive when completely covered in bulky clothing, and preferably also wearing a full-face crash helmet with the visor down.

Sorry to lower the tone of the thread.

Queen I hate that you have suffered abuse of any sort and it is completely understandable that you'd see these teachings as negative for that reason.

I personally think they are negative but for different reasons, I think they remove blame from men and even suggest that they cannot control themselves. Bit sexist no?

They also give women a false sense of security,'if I dress in a demure fashion then no harm will come to me'. Bullshit. You could cover from head to toe like Piglet and still fall prey to some bastard who likes to assert his control over women.

I think the teachings ought to be directed at men and women, using scripture to advise them on the changing world, over sexualisation of ...well....everything lol, porn, temptations, rape, assault, the works....but they should be directed at both genders.

The problem is that religion is sexist....simples.

If this is making you anxious, you need to address it. Personally I address stuff like this by teaching dd (9) to be proud, confident and to be whoever she is. I really feel for you, I do and I hope I haven't come across badly in my previous posts. I just didn't want you to think that these opinions were unique. x

Why will your daughter be advised about such things by her dad's family? Surely you will be the bigger influence on her?

I was raised catholic, sent to convent school and given a strong anti abortion/divorce/contraception message. But I don't hold those beliefs as I'm capable of forming my own opinions.

Women in Britain have only really gained most of their rights in the last 50 years or so, and still have a long way to go. Any religion based closely on the teachings of a 2000 year old book is not going to hold modern views about women.

Thatisall - No I agree with that. That's pretty much what I've said so far in my e-mail.

My problems with the advice are;

It is too close to what abusers themselves tell their victims (IE you asked for it, you made me, you'll be alone if you leave me).

It puts responsibility onto women to not get raped/assaulted, instead of putting it to men to not rape/assault.

As you said, its sexist and implies men have no control

It uses abuse as a way to prove biblical prophecies, and at the same time is excusing abuse, however many times they say its not, it is, because they teach that satan is poisoning man kind, therefore, if satan is making people do evil things, its really satan causing abuse, not the man doing the abuse, it paints the abuser as a victim.

I feel it overall discourages women from speaking out. Even though they say they should speak out, going on to advise these sorts of things makes it less likely that the will.

It states that it is unreasonable to expect no course behaviour towards women. Wtf.

lol wtf indeed!!

I think you'll find alot of people fighting the clothing corner, but the marriage side, I reckon they wont sway on that. They'll say (as do the Catholics) that it isn't about forcing the wife and husband to be alone should they separate, it's valuing marriage as a one time deal.

Who are you going to email?

AKiss - She lives with her dad. I agreed to it because court proceedings were interfering with her medical treatment (He lives in wales, I in england, we couldn't secure funding while she had interim residence with me, so I agreed to her living with him). She stays with me aswell obviously.
He is not a practising witness, he agrees with some of their teachings, which I am fully informed on and comfortable with.
I had questioned their stance on reporting abuse, but was not told any of this information.

I have no doubt in my mind he would not knowingly stand by an allow our daughter to be abused, but I am worried that exposure to these teachings and opinions would make her less likely to tell us if, god forbid, she were ever assaulted in any manner.

Queen, I agree it's crap. I also think they are preying on people's beliefs that this is ONLY happening because the end of days is near. Which in addition to the sexual bigotry is fear mongering.

I was going to email DDs Dad.
He won't speak to me about this in person, I know he won't. He never speaks to me in person, for various bullshit reasons.

If I had children exposed to their beliefs this is what would be worrying me the most.

Narked - do you know the current laws on this?

I've not so much an issue with the blood. In situations where it is planned I would opt for an auto transfusion myself anyway, and would do the same for my child.

In a situation like that in the article, I have always been led to believe they will take consent from whichever parent is willing to give it and just get on with it? I assume consent was refused by both his parents as elders were commenting, and its quite unusual for a minor to be baptised AFAIK.

Ah, but they are wrong. I was harassed by numerous every fucking drivers on the 1 occasion that I walked instead of using my car. I was wearing loose fitting jeans, a loose fitting T-shirt and ankle boots with a low heel, no make-up and my hair was pinned up. But obviously it's my own fault for living in a Catholic country in south America. If I lived in a nice JW suburb in a civilised country no-one would ever holler sexual inuendo aggressively at me, would they?

And yes, I would be alarmed if my DDs were taught that twaddle.

I agree with thatisall, it all sounds pretty tame as far as religious teachings go, religion IS sexist (almost always), and I also understood it to be talking about sexual harassment rather than rape. I still totally understand your concerns & wouldn't want my child to be taught this stuff, especially if the teaching starts before she's old enough to question it, but I'm pretty sure I could say the same for almost any religion, it's really tricky, you know her dad so you know how best to tackle it, but I would say be careful incase you end up alienating yourself.

(Just for the sake of accuracy, that bit about most religions would say you can't re-marry isn't true though, divorce and re-marriage are totally acceptable in many religions (Islam being a pretty big one), not that it matters particularly but just wanted to clear that up!)

Abody my bad lol.

Maybe most Christian/Bible led religions?