to withdraw my support

[mamadoc]

Long story but could really use some perspective:

I have a friend I met through a toddler group when DD was small. TBH we never had much in common (her DD is 2 yrs older than mine so they're not friends either) but she was very persistent in keeping in touch when I was trying to let it drop so it just carried on.

Two years ago her DD was removed from her care by SS and I have tried to support her in her battle to get her back. I initially thought it was a huge miscarriage of justice as I never saw anything in her parenting that I thought was abusive but stuff that has come out during the course of the case has made me question my initial judgement. I still think that she should have been better supported and given more chances to turn it around but fundamentally I think she was in the wrong.

She is very isolated: no family, no partner, no job and friends seem to come and go. She is also understandably depressed at present. I therefore feel quite a lot of responsibility but its all getting too much for me.

She rings, texts, e-mails a lot. She comes round my house nearly every day and stays all day. She doesn't respond to polite hints to leave and stays until dh and I go to bed. She hasn't much money so its always me calling her back, lending a quid or two here and there (I learnt a while back never to lend more as it won't be returned), use of my phone, computer, printer and guilt trip if I ever say no.

My family life is suffering. I work, have two small kids and I do like to try and see my other friends and family sometimes! DH and DD groan when they see her coming (DS too small to care) as they know she will monopolise my time for ages. She has had quite inappropriate conversations in front of DD.

Last night I was trying to help her with a response to some official document and she was being so economical with the truth that it massively riled me and I snapped and kicked her out. I almost never get angry but I was shaking all over and couldn't calm down for ages. Today I've had texts saying how worried she is about this document and when am I going to finish helping her with it? Not worried about us arguing I notice.

So WIBU to just quit like everyone else has?

There is no realistic chance of her DD being returned so that's not an issue.
I never let her be alone with my DC even for 5 mins although I don't think they are actually at any risk from her or else of course I would never let her over my doorstep (it was neglect/ emotional).
I have recently become more aware though that DD (age 5) is overhearing things she shouldn't and I know that has to stop.
I am aware that DH is v pissed off and I know that's another good reason to act. He has no more success in getting her to leave than I do. We are both just too polite.
SS don't seem to have offered her any support. She has complained a lot about them and they seem to see her as a thorn in their side. I have sometimes attended meetings with her if I've been able. She has counselling through the NHS now although the GP was reluctant to refer her initially.
I guess I could float the idea of going round to hers one morning instead of it always being here.

Is she having supervised contact?

It sounds as though you are being used as she will have access to a phone for any calls to do with the removal of her child and if the emails needed to be printed, her solicitor would print them.

SS don't seem to have offered her any support.

If support wasn't offered by SS the judge would have heavily criticised the SW and the court would want a plan of suport drawing up.

Is it LAC meetings that you go to?

Your child should not be hearing anything, this could frighten her, thinking that children can be taken from their parents.

Even your new rules are giving her too much leeway. Give her an inch and she will carry on taking a mile. You need to be very strict with her. Offer to visit HER house. She is using you for your phone, computer and printer by the sound of things.

Give her the details of the nearest library and children's centre for "while I am away". Next time she asks to come over tell her you are busy. If your DH is fed up (understandably) then get him onside and get him to help you screen her a bit - answering the door, the house phone, etc.

Why is she printing out loads of emails?? She could forward them on to whoever needs them, or save them to a disk or memory stick which are both very cheap to buy.

If you were ill would she give you so much of her time and support? My guess is you wouldn't see her for dust!

I wouldn't dump her if you can help it. You sound different from every other friend she has - you're worth two of them all. But decide how much time you're able to give this, explain it to her, stick to it, and if she sulks/ignores the boundaries, it's up to her. Just be firm and then determinedly nice at the times you have arranged.

It annoys me how many people urge others to drop friends like these, whilst also complaining about (a) how lonely they are (b) the sliding values in this country (c) how children are brought up badly by inexperienced parents (d) our fragmented society. If you want things to be like they were in the old days, you have to be like they were in the old days, visiting the sick, supporting the fragile and generally putting up with people. I understand it's very hard for you trying to do the decent thing by this desperate, damaged woman in a community that is sitting back and leaving you to it. But don't give up being better than that!

If you really want your conscience settled then I'll toe the line for you...yes you've done above and beyond, she is obviously a user. What's not to dump?

Sorry, I must be pre-menstrual...

Kelly I've been cagey about detail because its not my story to tell but I am convinced now that there is very solid evidence of emotional abuse that can't be argued against and to be fair she admits this. In my view she is a vulnerable person who would have needed a lot of support to be a good parent. I continue to think that opportunities to do this were missed in the past and I feel sad about that but as I now discover she is a hard person to help.

Birdsgottafly I honestly am not completely naive. I have my eyes open and I don't take everything at face value. I don't agree with her version of everything and I say so (hence the argument) but gently. The case is at a pretty terminal stage now so the solicitor is withdrawing but of course she wants to keep fighting to the death as I think probably anyone would. I always say that in my view it is pretty hopeless but I understand why she would want to do all she can.

I worry that this woman could go a bit nuts for want of a better phrase (and with the greatest respect to anyone with mental health issues).

Darksecret you sum up quite neatly why I am still doing it! (only 99% of people think I am a complete nutjob now)

Birdsgottafly I know, I know I feel really crappy that DD heard any of this. My DC are my top priority and I would never want this to affect them. She was too little to understand when it 1st started so it has sort of crept up on me. She has never actually said anything so I don't know whether to attempt an explanation/ reassurance or just leave it.

A vulrable person is made that way through their own life. Its so fucking sad. You are not at fault but maybe neither would she have been if she'd been given the help or support she needed prior to or after having a child. This whole situation makes me feel so sad as truly neglectful and uncaring mothers would surely not care if their child was taken. She obvs does. What a sad sad situation. Poor her and poor u :( makes me want to cry.

Thanks to everyone for the perspective. I had got very lost in it all.

I had not thought of pre-empting by offering to go round to hers so that's a good idea that I will take forward.

I have suggested CAB, counselling and women's resource centre in the past and she has actually taken up a lot of these but still falls back on me. Something I have noticed is that if I am unavailable she does always somehow find someone else to help. I am not worried that she won't manage without me just finding it really hard practically to say no loud enough to get through.

Also - I had a terrible, terrible childhood. The kind that awarded my dad a spot on the sex offenders register and me a chunk of victims compensation. I still know how to be a good person, and a good parent because that is the kind of person I want and strive to be.

Yes she may have had poor role models herself in the parenting stakes but don't let this be an excuse.

I personally know of children living in conditions that have made me weep, that SS have allowed to stay with their parents, and I also know of a child who suffered who a horrid, physical attack, who SS allowed contact with. The fact that this woman has a case she cannot fight that her solicitors are now withdrawing from, and she is continuing to -be- economical- -with- -the- -truth- LIE about, speaks volumes to me.

By all means support her at arms length. Call her up when you've put your DD to bed for a chat on the phone for example. But don't be used. Don't let your support of her be to the detriment of your own personal life.

You sound like a kind, caring person and I feel she is taking advantage of that which is a real shame.

Darksecret, but it's not a friendship is it? The Op is upset and cross, and the only thing this lady can say is 'when are you back, can I print some documents?' That's not the response of a friend.

And, society doesn't function better if you pour endless time and energy into someone who cannot be helped, and then neglect your own family and damage your marriage.

I think the trouble is that now you know the truth, that she was at the very least emotionally abusive and neglectful, you don't want to be complicit in this any more, nor have it seep into your own home. To me, this is a moral decision and I understand why it is weighing on your conscience. It would be different if you believed her 100%.

I in no way would support her having her DD back knowing what I now know. It started off sort of a crusade for justice then I realised life is not that simple.

There is no way that will happen so I think I am just trying to support someone who is going through a very bad trauma. You can argue about to what extent it was 'deserved' or she is responsible (it is a cycle repeating itself) but I think that doesn't make her less deserving of sympathy or support.

It is not in any genuine way a friendship. You are all correct that I didn't get much support from her for my two miscarriages or hospitalised child during this time. I don't expect or really want emotional support back as I have other friends who do that. So why do I keep on doing it I ask myself? Mainly I just think someone should I guess.

It does seem appalling to me that people who probably in the majority of cases haven't got a whole lot of education or resources are expected to understand reports and court documents in obscure language and attend intimidating meetings alone.

All that said you are also all correct that it is way out of hand and I need to put some very firm boundaries in for the sake of my family if not myself.

Again, you seem like a really genuinely lovely person and if you can find a way to support her from a more arm's length position then that's wonderful.

But, for me, it's all about your family and your health - the ins and outs of her story and whether she's 'to blame' or not for the situation is largely an irrelevancy.

I think boredandrestless's post is fantastic and spot on (and am so sorry to hear what a shitty childhood you had bored). It's like women being abused by their h's are always told on here - yes your h may have had abusive childhood himself but that is not an excuse to go on to terrorise and abuse, adults do have choices.

It actually makes me angry when people on here suggest it is unkind or unfair to drop this 'friend', blithering on about how society and community is falling apart because we are all turning out backs.

There is helping and supporting people in need - and hopefully we all do our bit in our own ways to lesser or greater degrees - and there is making yourself ill and putting your own family on the back burner for someone who is ripping the piss out of you, however vulnerable they are.

What you've written here sums it up
Something I have noticed is that if I am unavailable she does always somehow find someone else to help

She may be in a sad situation, she may be vulnerable BUT the help doesnt always have to be you, she finds others when it suits her.
You have gone above and beyond what a friend would do.
You need time for your own family

Have you ever needed her support in anything?
How did she respond?

You sound like a wonderful person. But we all have our limits and you have to put your family first. Please don't beat yourself up over this. Could you maybe help find her an IT course or something to go on? That way she wouldn't be relying on your for IT help for one thing. And it might help her somehow in the longrun.