Child behaves differently when assessed by cafcass

[powall]

Background is that ex has applied for contact with our 3 year old, although was uninterested and unsafe with the child prior to me stopping access. Contact has gone on for about 6 months just for a couple of hours every 2 weeks but child has slowly become resistant and displays changed behaviour after contact. I stopped contact and a new cafcass report was ordered.

My child never wants to go to contact and frequently says things like daddy is bad, daddy hurts me, etc. Very troubling.

Cafcass interviewed both parents, then saw my child with me and with father indenpendently.

The very strange thing is that the cafcass report says that when they saw the child with the father the relationship looked good and there were no signs of distress or any problems whatsoever!

Of course, they went on to conclude that I had made the whole thing up, or words to that effect.

Is this normal? Do young children do and say these things then do the opposite when under scrutiny?

I wondered if it was the strange surroundings and the fact that the child didn't know the cafcass officers. Perhaps the child was nervous and simply saw a familiar face. Naturally, the ex would have been on best behaviour. He fooled me for years so perhaps fooling a child, and cafcass officers (who only see him for 15 minutes) was simple.

I feel a bit vulnerable to this now. Ex has been a big problem making all kinds of accusations and generally harrassing me. Police have been involved too, but cafcass seem to assume it's all made up just because of this.

I was thinking of that hostage syndrome where hostages remain close to their captor. That may be a bit extreme but I am trying to understand why the child would have acted so happily with the ex after all that has happened. I'm not making it up and it worries me extremely.

Is there any counter argument? What can I say in my defense when cafcass seem so ready to acuse me? Any advice would be helpful.

Children say things all the time they think/know a parent wants to hear because they want approval in our eyes.

That might include My child never wants to go to contact and frequently says things like daddy is bad, daddy hurts me, etc because he/she picks up on your vibes.

im sorry your going through this.

you have to remeber a child will always love thier parent, even if they are negelted and or abused by them. they also live in tthe now. so if "dad" was behaving good your child would react to this.

all i can sugest is to keep any proof, check your son over when he comes back for any marks. maybe even recored the conversation with your son, to get on tape what your child says after coming back.
hopfully some one will come along with better advice.
keep strong though xx

Is it possible that your child has overheard you talking about the father? You say he was 'unsafe' around your child in the past. Children are like emotional sponges - it sounds as though your DC is picking up on your negative vibes and expectations of your Ex and mirroring them back to you.

If you are seriously concerned is there any way you could somehow secretly watch/record one of his access visits, or get a private investigator to do it?

Unfortunately children can and do pick up more than we think, so if the parent with care doesn't want them to go, this can translate to an apparent reluctance to leave the parent for contact.

We get a few variations of this with DSD, and sadly they are used against us frequently both in and out of court. We had problems with the accusations such as 'Daddy hurt me' at this age too, and when parents are hostile, its hard to work out if its genuine abuse, accidental (I.e. Pulling car seat straps too tight, picking up roughly by accident, or general roughousing).

Usually once the child is with the other parent there are few problems.

Thanks to all.

I don't want to fill up this page (or your heads) with the rather bad history of this. Ex was physically and verbally abusive and never interested in our child. He never lived with us, never did anything to support us, just wanted me available to him. Although his statement reads like we were living on Walton mountain!

My opinion remains that he is only going through contact proceedings to continue trying to control me - he has said as much. He's an alcoholic, among other things. None of this seems to concern the court unduly. I struggle with their 'trust' of him, given the history.

Knowing the way the courts work these days I resigned myself to contact, but I try not to allow my feelings to affect our child. This isn't always possible, admittedly, but his behaviour after contact recently has been extremely worrying. And in no way reflects anything he could have got from me. I wouldn't have stopped it without genuine concerns.

I did collect statements, photos, etc, but the court seems to take it all with such a large pinch of salt that I am constantly in a defensive position.

I supervise contacts between parents and their children in foster care.

Around the age of three children can start to realise what a parent wants to hear and say stuff along those lines, in usual circumstances this won't happen, but in situations such as yours it is common without anything going on.

You need to be super aware of how and what you say to your child, parents don't realise that this age is also a time when anxiety in a child starts and children dostart to 'story tell' toget rid of that anxiety.

Children only need to know what is relevent to their little world and nothing else.

Both you and your ex need to think about what you are talking about with your child.

However, gently push for an explanation without 'feeding' into this, for now.

but I try not to allow my feelings to affect our child. This isn't always possible, admittedly, but his behaviour after contact recently has been extremely worrying. And in no way reflects anything he could have got from me.

That statement is a contridiction.

Thanks again.

Ex is totally uncooperative, which is part of the problem. He has broken just about all the promises made in court related to harrassment. And doesn't follow the arrangements set out by the court as to how contact should proceed - eg, he takes our child away from the location he is supposed to remain in, he includes other people in contact when it is just supposed to be him, etc.

He also breaks other restrictions on him related to watching me, being close to my home, turning up at places he knows I will be, contacting friends of mine making criticisms of me or attempting to get information on me, drinking the day before contact (possibly during contact too, although I cannot be sure).

So in the context of that, and the past history, it's difficult to make a judgement as to which of my child's behaviour indicates danger, and which is simply my child picking up on anxiety.

Cafcass et al don't seem to take any of this seriously, despite a long track record of police, ss involvement and a number of marak meetings - they haven't even spoken to any of the agencies that have responded to past problems. Apparently, I could have influenced them all...

but I try not to allow my feelings to affect our child. This isn't always possible, admittedly, but his behaviour after contact recently has been extremely worrying. And in no way reflects anything he could have got from me.

That statement is a contridiction.

= I don't understand your point. If I haven't made myself clear then it may just be my writing.

My little boy used to say things like that about his dad when he was NT after me and his dad had argued. It was never in front of him but I think he picked up on the vibes.

Also once after regression DS who has communication problems kept saying

'daddy strangled me'

He didn't stop saying it and I was at breaking point with worry when I said 'show me where DS' and he grabbed his wrist. Basically he had tried to rub off and his dad had grabbed his wrist and it has hurt him.

They don't always mean to lie as such but communicate something minor in a worrying way

you have to remeber a child will always love thier parent, even if they are negelted and or abused by them. they also live in tthe now. so if "dad" was behaving good your child would react to this.

Thank you. The problem is that prior to contact beginning, they really didn't have a relationship. Ex was never interested and saw little of his child. When he did it was negative. Our child has far closer bonds with friends of mine. So it's difficult to see this as the perpetuation of a father-child bond.

You say that you try not tolet your feelings affect your child, then admit that it isn't always possible.

Tbh, you need to ignore a lot of the crap that goes on, such as him trying tofind out information about you, so what? Would be my answer.

The same applies to your friends, they should just completely 'blank' him.

Other than worrying about what goes on during contact, don't have your ex in your head or discuss him, ever.

The harrassment is something that you deal with seperately.

Do you have any eveidence that he is drinking heavily still and before contact?

Ex was never interested and saw little of his child

Now he does, so forget the past and react only to what is happening here and now.

My little boy used to say things like that about his dad when he was NT after me and his dad had argued. It was never in front of him but I think he picked up on the vibes.

Thank you. I have dismissed a lot of what my child has said, and I would be very worried if my child said 'strangled' so your post is very helpful to get some perspective. But after the last contact my child was a completely different person. He was saying daddy was bad, saying he was hurt, he became very aggressive and insecure alternately for days after. He had nightmares. He wouldn't eat, he was manic, it was like he was possessed. And prior contact sessions had escalated to this so I thought that I could not go to another and watch things get worse.

My solicitor told me that I should encourage contact but if I felt that my child's welfare was at stake then it would be 'abusive' to continue. It feels like I am between a rock and a hard place - If I continue contact with this result, then it may be abuse, but if I cease contact and cafcass judge there to be no issue, then I am accused of abuse (re not allowing my child to see his father).

Are your friends having anything to say about your ex?

Tbh, he has very little contact and that might be the issue, i cannot understand why so little was ordered, as a child of that age would need weekly contact to build a relationship.

What are the future plans?

Thank you.

You say that you try not tolet your feelings affect your child, then admit that it isn't always possible.

• I understand your point, but does any mother ever get that level of detachment? I try my best and I think my best is pretty good.

"Tbh, you need to ignore a lot of the crap that goes on, such as him trying tofind out information about you, so what? Would be my answer.*

• after dealing with police and ss as much as I have (not due to me, but due to his actions) it's difficult not to be worried where the next attack might come from. 'So what' is not a sensible response for me, especially if he comes knocking on my door, late at night, drunk again.

The same applies to your friends, they should just completely 'blank' him.

• I can't control my friends. He is a difficult character and people generally try to placate him rather than cross him. I wish it were different but I cannot tell them what to do.

Other than worrying about what goes on during contact, don't have your ex in your head or discuss him, ever.

• easier said than done. His constant appearance in my life means that I never get any distance. The police want me to report him every time I see him, and then they need statements, and then ss come along, then health workers...

The harrassment is something that you deal with seperately.

• I understand that, but it's difficult not to believe that the application for contact and the past and present harrassment are not linked in his mind. And hence the concerns are there for the quality of contact.

Do you have any eveidence that he is drinking heavily still and before contact?

• the alcohol testing (requested by the court and cafcass) show that he is drinking 'excessively'. Other than that, hearsay evidence from more than one source.

Thank you for replying. The discussion helps to clear my head a bit.

Are your friends having anything to say about your ex?

• friends generally distrust and dislike him for obvious reasons. He tends to approach them with alot of self pity, and can get quite hostile if he doesn't get any sympathy so people are wary and tend to placate him.

Tbh, he has very little contact and that might be the issue, i cannot understand why so little was ordered, as a child of that age would need weekly contact to build a relationship.

Perhaps some of my concerns got through. All I can say is it's no exageration to say that he had very little involvement with our child prior to his application. The application came the day after the police were called for one of his 'visits'.

What are the future plans?

• as far as contact is concerned, nothing more has been indicated. Contact is supposed to progress, but has not. The drink test results added some caution to progression, I think.

so people are wary and tend to placate him.

That needs to stop, all they are doing is feeding into his behaviour, any hostility/threats need to be reported to the police. This should not be mentioned at all if your child is around.

If then there is cause tobe concerned over your ex's behaviour then the court will take that on board.

Would they be willing to do that?

Visits every two weeks would unsettle a three year old as s/he will be confused about the length of time between visits.

How heavily is he drinking? Is he drinking around your child? How is contact ended, does he drop him at yours?

That needs to stop, all they are doing is feeding into his behaviour, any hostility/threats need to be reported to the police. This should not be mentioned at all if your child is around.

• I agree, but as I said before he is persistent and people don't want to 'get involved'.

If then there is cause tobe concerned over your ex's behaviour then the court will take that on board.

• I wish they would. But they don't seem to. Their policy seems to be that unless something truly awful happens now, then contact should continue (not taking past into consideration).

How heavily is he drinking? Is he drinking around your child? How is contact ended, does he drop him at yours?

• according to the test results he is drinking heavily. Yes, he may be drinking around our child. No he doesn't drop at mine since he's not allowed near me or my home.

They are getting involved, though, just by giving into him.

Tbh, it would sound to the court that there is game playing going on, by them using the excuse that they are placating him.

It is keeping the flow going, they aren't friends, it is easier to tell someone that they aren't getting involved by not speaking to him.

Who does he doing the dropping off to, are the relaiable to judge whether he has been drinking?

*They are getting involved, though, just by giving into him.

Tbh, it would sound to the court that there is game playing going on, by them using the excuse that they are placating him.

It is keeping the flow going, they aren't friends, it is easier to tell someone that they aren't getting involved by not speaking to him.*

• I've said all I can. Mostly, I don't think they talk with him exactly, or always reply, but he still contacts them. I see it as his pattern - he is quite an obsessive person.

Who does he doing the dropping off to, are the relaiable to judge whether he has been drinking?

• He covers it well, I know that. In fact, his drinking is more evident when he abstains because he gets very shakey. So, if he is calm and smiling it usually means he has had a drink to get rid of the shakes. Unfortunately, this quickly turns to hostility. The court seems to want to get around problems rather than entertain them - each person who has been involved has made a statement to say they observed problems so the court just moves contact to another location and requests someone else. It really seems very blinkered.

The man is a 'respectable professional' and presents well. So unless people know him they don't realise what he is like. He really is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He had me fooled for years so it is no surprise, but it's very depressing. Well, perhaps not fooled exactly, but threats and violence followed by remorse and smiles, then complete amnesia soon after and back to the start again, seems to work for him.

The problem is the lack of time spent with your child when you were around, because you haven't had chance to observe him.

Unless he does pose a risk, contact will be awarded.

How is is with other adults, may be different than how he would be with your child.

It does sound as though you need to wait until your child can verbalise events fully.

You need to really keep your or anyone elses concerns away from your child.

If he functions at work, you will just have to put your faith into him managing to keep your child safe.

You need to focus on here and now, the contact sessions and ignore/disengage from gossip, accusations and hearsay etc.

How do you know that he is taking the child elsewhere?