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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not let TV licence authorities in without a warrant?

82 replies

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 18/08/2012 10:46

Having a discussion on facebook with some friends, I know I don't need a license quite a few of them didnt know the criteria, but we're past that now as I dont watch (or record in any way) LIVE TV

I said that TV licence officials don't have the right to enter a property without a warrant. The police need a warrant (except in some circumstances, I know, but generally), so why do TV licence people think they are above this?

I asked the local police fb page if they have the right to come in, and they said they cannot comment on TV licensing procedures and that i'd have to ask them. If I did, they'd obviously say they have the right to come in, wouldn't they? So are they above the law?!

So back to the original question. Some people think I'm right, some wrong, and some say that it's just easier to let them in !! Shock

What do you think??

OP posts:
JumpingThroughMoreHoops · 18/08/2012 10:54

You made me go and check your words, OP because I doubted you

But you ARE right!

The law states that you need to be covered by a TV Licence if you watch or record television programmes, on any device, as they're being shown on TV. This includes TVs, computers, mobile phones, games consoles, digital boxes and Blu-ray/DVD/VHS recorders.

You don't need a licence if you don't use any of these devices to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch ?catch up? services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD..

Who has the right to enter your home?

You are also right in your assumption that some people do have a right by law to enter your property even without your consent, such as:

? The police, who can search with your written consent. They can search without your consent if they have a warrant. Warrants are only given in serious circumstances so get legal advice as soon as possible. The police can search premises without a warrant if they are looking for drugs or firearms, if a crime is being committed on the premises, or to arrest someone.

? Fire officers or police officers may enter premises where there is a fire or there is reason to believe a fire has broken out. They can also enter neighbouring premises to fight a fire. A fire officer is entitled to force entry if necessary.

? Gas and electricity companies may enter your home without consent with a magistrate?s warrant to inspect the meter or any other fittings or appliances, or to disconnect the supply. They must give you at least 24 hours notice and can only apply for a warrant if you fail to give access. They can enter without a warrant or consent in an emergency such as a gas leak.

? Inspectors from a social security agency do not have a right to enter your home and can only do so if permitted.

? An approved social worker can enter and inspect any premises if it is believed a mentally disabled person lives in the property and that person is not being properly cared for. If entry is refused, then the social worker has a right to apply for a magistrate?s warrant and will return accompanied by a doctor and a police officer.

? Planning officers may enter premises on 24 hours notice for a number of planning reasons. They cannot force entry but it is a criminal offence to obstruct their entry.

? Bailiffs rarely have a right to force entry, but they can enter without force such as through an unlocked door or open window. Once you invite them in, they have a right to remain in the property.

No one can force their way into your home without notice and they usually need a court order unless there is a genuine emergency where life or property is at risk. Check callers? paperwork. If it is not genuine, report the caller.

Iteotwawki · 18/08/2012 10:54

I don't believe it's whether you personally watch or record live tv, it's whether you have equipment that is capable of doing so.

These days a computer with an Internet connection is theoretically capable of streaming live tv and therefore requires a licence.

No clue about warrant requirements but I would always err on the side of caution, they may be perfectly entitled to enter just with reasonable suspicion.

Chattymummyhere · 18/08/2012 10:55

To be honest I dont think you have to let anyone in you dont want to without a court order/warrant..

Police need one
Landlord needs one to enter without permission unless emergency (gas leak etc)

I dont see how Tv License people would be exempt, be a bit like saying Bob from down the road can pop in when ever just because he says so..

mellen · 18/08/2012 10:57

You need a licence if you watch or record live TV, not if you could.

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 18/08/2012 10:59

What mellen said. If it were anyone with a computer and internet, Im sure they'd specifically say that on the website. And as it is, they say watching iplayer is okay... (which you need an internet connection for, obv)

OP posts:
RustyBear · 18/08/2012 11:00

iteowaki - the paragraph Jumping quoted "You don't need a licence if you don't use any of these devices to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch ?catch up? services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD." comes from the official TV licence site, so it's not true that you need a licence for equipment capable of recieving a signal, you only need one if you watch TV as it is being shown

OutOfVictoriaByBarbarosa · 18/08/2012 11:01

They are absolutely 100% NOT allowed to come in without a warrant if you don't want them in.

dashoflime · 18/08/2012 11:03

TV licence investigators have no right of entry. YANBU

Iteotwawki · 18/08/2012 11:25

Yes, I realise I was wrong. I xposted but given Jumping's post was a more thorough (and accurate!) reply I didn't bother posting a follow up.

Fireandashes · 18/08/2012 11:35

YANBU, and in my TV-free days I once refused an inspector access on those grounds. (He never did bother coming back with a warrant.)

I was a bit of a militant about it though, after getting fed up of receiving warning/threatening letters every few weeks despite signing the declaration and not having ever had a TV on the premises. I expressed concern that their much-vaunted-at-the-time super-duper detection equipment must be malfunctioning if it was claiming to be picking up a signal where no TV existed, at which point he confirmed no signal had been detected. I pointed out that in no other circumstance was I expected to allow a complete stranger into my home in order to prove, on no evidence to the contrary whatsoever, that I was not breaking the law. He said that most people who "think" they don't need a licence are mistaken and this check was to "save me a fine". I said that since I was fairly confident that not having a TV on the premises was valid grounds to not have a licence I wasn't in any danger of a fine and having my intelligence patronised or called into question wasn't going to make me any more likely to let him in when I didn't have to.

I think he wished he'd taken the day off by the time I'd finished with him.

OneOfMyTurnsComingOn · 18/08/2012 11:39

Mellen is right.

I would also add, it is up to them to prove you do use equipment for this purpose, not to you to prove you don't.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/08/2012 11:39

As we are in the area of forcing entry:-

A bailiff cannot use force to gain entry into a domestic property on their first visit: they can only use ?peaceable means?. Entering through an open or unlocked door, or via a window without causing any damage or disturbance, is acceptable. Forcing their way past someone at the door is not.

A bailif is court appointed so the person will have been to court and or have a CCJ against them.

A bailif is not a debt collector and should have an identity card

LadyBeagleEyes · 18/08/2012 11:47

I remember, many years ago how they harassed my elderly Great Aunt who was registered blind and had long ago got rid of her TV.
It took my cousin to phone and have some very strong words before they left her alone.
I always keep up to date with my TV licence, but fuck, they're very Big Brother.
The first letter I got when I'd only been in my new house a few days, was from them, with their underlying threats.
They assume that everybody has a tv.
I feel for the elderly and confused that have to deal with them.

twirlyagogo · 18/08/2012 11:53

They don't listen to reason.

I've always had a licence, and pay by direct debit - they've been threatening me for two years now and the most recent letter says They Are On Their Way.

Fine - they can waste their time given that they won't speak to me on the phone about it and the money comes out of the account every month to pay the fee and always has done, so good luck getting them to see sense.

redpanda13 · 18/08/2012 11:55

Oh yes in the early 90's I was a student and TV less. It was an unnecessary expense as I was either out having a good time, working in a pub or studying. I was harassed by them all the time. Letters every week no matter how often I told them I did not have a TV. I was told they are like vampires and you have to invite them in but when one did show up at my door I let him in. He agreed that I did not need a licence and guess what? The very next week they sent me a letter again!!! They really do seem to assume that everyone has a TV.

DrLobster · 18/08/2012 11:58

I hate TV licensing, I lived for years without a TV (therefore no license).

To those of you who are watching TV without a license I have no sympathy, but to those of you who are being troubled by them then I suggest you make their lives as hard as possible.

They sent me a whole load of nasty letters, so I have zero sympathy for them.

I would like to ask any of the laywers present what is the legal position on the following matter.

A person comes to your door with a warent, how do you make sure the warent is a legal warrent issued by a given court rather than a bus timetable or a forged warrent ?

Also how best can you waste the time of the warrent holder checking that the warrent is legal.

ClimbingPenguin · 18/08/2012 12:04

just to say, we haven't had a TV for a year now and have never received any letters (nasty or otherwise) once we declared we didn't have a TV and therefore not paying the license fee.

mellen · 18/08/2012 12:06

I wonder how much of the licence fee goes on sending all those accusing letters?

Lora1982 · 18/08/2012 12:13

i had the licence guy come in he wasnt snotty just showed him the tvs said i only watch on demand on the xbox n pc. all he did was check if an aerial was attached n that wa it i was fine. i crapped myself all the way through the pening ceremony when i was watchin on my laptop incase they discovered me :-D

i know someone who had them at the dr n he said well you have an aerial on the roof so u must use tv, he said ive got milk in the fridge but it doesnt mean ive got a cow.

Fireandashes · 18/08/2012 12:14

Penguin I didn't at first, it was a gradual increase over years until I was receiving approx one every 4-6 weeks.

I worked in the CJS and a helpful colleague drafted a letter for me threatening them with prosecution under the Protection from Harassment Act. That seemed to do the trick.

DoItOnce · 18/08/2012 12:22

Why not just let him in, I would, unless he was rude. Not a very militant viewpoint I admit, but I don't see what the big deal is.

I don't understand why people think its a good idea to make the enforcement of TV licences difficult. I have a license but my son at uni doesn't as he doesn't watch live TV. He filled out an online form to say why he didn't need a licence at his halls of residence last year and did not receive any letters or visits from the TV licence people while his flat mates who hadn't filled out the form did.

PenelopePipPop · 18/08/2012 12:27

I don't think TV Licence people do think they are above the law. The only time we were visited the guy was very polite and apologetic, said he realised we'd said we didn't have a TV would we mind just letting him in to check. Since our front door opens in to our front room he only needed to put his head in to find out (or peer through our front windows!). Took all of 15seconds 5 years ago and we haven't heard from them since.

I know a lot of people who don't have TVs and although a lot of them get aggravated by the letters, I've never heard of anyone having a hard time from someone from TV licensing on the doorstep. Certainly never heard of anyone saying they have a right of entry when they do not.

If they have reasonable suspicion that TV is being watched on the premises and cannot gain entry they can get a magistrates warrant. Otherwise they'd never be able to enforce the law.

Birdsgottafly · 18/08/2012 12:34

I have had some very unpleasant exchanges with TV licencing people, tbh, i never met a decent one, who hasn't had illusions of grandure and love putting them in their place.

I wouldn't let one in, ever, i don't if i am at a clients address and they knock.

LadyBeagleEyes · 18/08/2012 12:39

Er, Penelope, why should you be the one to prove you don't have a TV?
What right did they have to come to your house?
That is working above the law.

StuntGirl · 18/08/2012 12:45

I hate the tv licencing company. The assumption seems to be guilty til proven innocent, and even when innocent they're so inept they'll still harass you.

We have our tv set to analogue because we don't watch tv, we use ours for video ganes and netflix through the 360. We do everything we can to stay off their radar, I hate them.

But you're right OP, you don't have to let them in. I would always refuse them entry and have drummed it into my boyfriend that he's to do the same.