to wonder why there are not more part time jobs?

[Dottydooda]

Looking for jobs after redundancy from my 3 day a week role - I'm managerial level. I knew it would be hard to look for something part time again but if I hear another agency rolling their eyes and saying 'they're like gold dust' ....

Surely a part timer gives value for money (free hours etc) plus loyalty in return for flexibility? Why is everyone so fixated on traditional hours?

I've only been looking for around 1 month - am I being overly pessimistic at this early stage?

how does a part timer give free hours?

It's incredibly difficult - I was made redundant whilst pg so didn't have a job to return to and negotiate part time hours (which is how most pt City jobs come about). I took about 2 months of proper looking (i.e. agencies etc, not just scouring the net) and ended up with a 1 year contract for 3 days per week. I found most of it was contract/temp work and mostly mothers who were on a second maternity leave (i.e. they negotiated their part time hours after fist mat leave). Good luck. Where are you looking?

I know that some teachers that work part-time often end up working out of hours almost as much as they would if they were full-time.
Part time jobs are like gold dust because a huge number of people want them, and if it is a jobshare, then the level of liaison has to be fantastic for it to work as well as one full time person.
If you were made redundant, then is the market for your skills shrinking in the recession? How many others are competing for the posts you want?

I was wondering the same thing. I've started applying for roles in my field, and there's only 3 part-time jobs advertised in my city for the past month. I've been looking for about a month too.

Because most part time roles at that level are negotiated by the job holder. Then when that job holder leaves, most managers get that job re-instated as a full time job, for all sorts of reasons (to protect head count, because it probably always was a f/t job and it only worked p/t because the job holder did loads in their own time). Or, there's another person in the company desperate for p/t who steps into the role.

I know a few people who have ended up going f/t for a year and then re-negotiating their hours. Tough way to go about it though...

I'm confused about the 'free hours' thing as well.
Fine to look for a part time job if you want one, but it irks me a bit when people imply that part timers are somehow doing something over and above full timers, and that employers are actually getting a better deal out of them.
If as a part timer you work more than your allotted hours, then no doubt it's in a job such as teaching, where everyone works outside the normal hours. Why is it so difficult to get your head round the fact that if as a part timer you are working over and above your part time hours, then no doubt your full time colleagues are working over and above full time hours.

I think the bottom line is, employers want people who can do the job effectively and reliably, and if it suits them to employ people part time then they'll do so. I work in a medium size company; we have full timers and part timers, what matters is how well they do the job. Having said that, most of our part timers used to be full time and have negotiated their hours since. It helps if you have proved your worth to the company before trying to negotiate different hours. Most of our posts advertised are for full time posts because that's what the company requires, though obviously if it's a post where fewer hours are needed, then we advertise part time

Because most managerial/upper management level jobs require the person to be around full time. If you were looking for sales assistant/cleaner/bar staff/lower level admin jobs you'd find a different story.

Because most managerial roles require someone there doing the job full time, if a company hires two people working parttime to cover the full time hours, then the company has significantly higher costs than just having one person working full time.

Most you will be looking for will be where someone has already negotiated a job share then one side has left. As it's so hard to get part time, most people don't leave their jobs once they've got that unless they have too.

You might have to take a step down, or go full time and then negotiate part time once you've been there a year. Is full time not an option for you?

I've done 2yrs FT in a job I love to be able to negotiate PT on my return from Mat leave despite insistance in my interview that my job was FT. I'm so goddamned efficient that I can actually do my job in 3 days .

I've worked full time more than I've worked part time in my career so have seen both sides.

I also work in HR so have had to deal with my share of resourcing discussions with managers both for new vacancies and for flexible working requests. The fact is that most managers are tunnel vision and uncreative in their view on full time v part time recruitment. I'm afraid most just go for what they know.

I'll just keep badgering the agencies and milking my contacts - I'm sure my optimism will return tomorrow!

Are you talking about part time jobs, or job shares?
Because if you're actually talking about part time jobs, and suggesting that many managers are short sighted and can't see that a full time post could be done in, say, 3 days, then I think you're wrong. Companies, particularly in this time of economic hardship, are not in the business of paying people to spin a 3 day job into 5 days. Managers are all too aware of the need to be cost effective, and IME if a managerial role can genuinely be done in 3 days they'll happy pay someone for 3 days and save money!

I suspect though, you're thinking about jobs which are genuinely full time. Sometimes a job share may be appropriate (as long as it doesn't cost the company more, or impact in negative ways) but tbh there is likely to be a good supply of people with the relevant skills and experience wanting full time work.

I really don't buy into the view though that there are companies all over the country merrily paying people full time salaries when they don't need to. As others have pointed out, many jobs are suited to part time hours, but at managerial level many aren't.

3 days isn't the only part time option and if I were promoting the view that every recruiting manager should consider shovelling 5 days into 3, I would have 0 credibility in my profession.

Job shares, compressed hours, weekend hours, early finishes, core hours working, term time working, home working, 4 days, 9 day fortnights, staggered hours, annualised hours....to name a few.

If the managerial role can be carried out just as effectively, then I think companies embrace the idea of flexibility. I think in reality, if you end up with a team who are all working in all kinds of ways which might suit them but not meet all the other company needs, then it's bad news. I think even in our high tech society, there are often situations where actually being there physically in person and interacting with clients and colleagues is vitally important and there isn't a way of substituting for that effectively.

There are a lot of financial advantages to having staff working very staggered hours (hot desking, reduction in commute time, better spread of resources) that I think companies would embrace it if it delivered what they wanted. I am not against flexible or part time working; I just think in this day and age when companies can be really picky about who they employ, they are going to have no shortage of candidates who want full time and probably fairly traditional hours, and therefore if this what suits their needs, this is what they'll take.

I had exactly the same 'part time jobs are like gold dust' line from agencies after I lost my quite senior admin job. I agree that unless you are in a FT job where you have already proved yourself and can return after maternity with flexibility it is very hard.

I applied for in excess of 90 jobs over 4 months. Eventually I got a week's temping (5 days 9-3 basic admin) which turned into a maternity cover contract (4 days 9-4 more responsibility) and then managed to negotiate a permanent role with some homeworking in a far more senior position. Partly lucky, partly by proving I was a good employee.

I think the thing is if you restrict yourself to only looking for 3 full days it will narrow the field a lot. As someone else said there are lots of variations of part time. I say go for temping and see what it leads to, although you will most likely have to take a step down the ladder for a while.

Personally I think it's down to company culture, particularly with managerial level jobs. People 'panic' if a person with responsibility and a degree of autonomy is not contactable. I think it's a power/control thing. People are easier to manage if they are always around. God, when I was on long term sick leave after a major operation, my line manager nearly ended up having a nervous breakdown as I was no longer at his beck and call.

I have to say aswell, that having worked FT for over 10 years in a large company, I never ever did any real work on a Friday. I overworked on other days and did diddly squat on Fridays, either treating myself to a long pub lunch, or lots of net surfing in the afternoon. But, I couldn't exactly explain this with any credibility if I were to have asked to do 4 days which I knew they would never have agreed to (didnt matter as I'm now a SAHM :)).

Another one confused by the "free hours" thing! I am paid for 18 hours, I work 18 hours. . Do you mean part timers don't get a lunch break? I could take one if I chose, but it wouldn't be paid, so I don't, I woudl rather leave earlier.
Because the people in them tend to stay, because they are like gold dust! I've been part time for 7 years, in the same job, in fact t be honest I can only stick my job because it's part time. I realise I am very lucky.
I think part timers are marginalyl more hassle for the employer as there woudl be more part times doing the same amount of work as a smaller number of full timers. But that is offset by the fact that many part timers work up to 6 hours without a paid break (and then you're only entitled to 20 minutes).
I think there are more part time jobs available in shops and catering, depends on the kind of work you're looking for.
Keep looking, is all I can say, it cold take months to find the right job.

Yes just to clarify, I was full time in my job for 4 years before having DD1, came back part time after mat leave for 2 years, then had DD2, been back part time since then (2007). It's much easier to get a full time job made into a part time job than to get a part-time job straightaway.

I can see why part-timers do free hours. Called into meetings when they are not working and then aren't paid for attending. Working over because the cover staff are late and then not getting paid. It happens a lot. Given too much work to fit in so stay late to finish. It is hard to get a part-time job with hours to suit. Hope you find something soon.

But the same thing could be said for full time workers.

I am here over and above my paid hours a lot of the time, I also take work home with me. It's just just part time workers who do extra hours.

FWIW I could not do my job part time, it would not be possible to have a part time worker overseeing a team for example would it?

That's why there are less part time managerial positions available.

it would not be possible to have a part time worker overseeing a team for example would it?

Depends entirely on the team, surely. If it's a team that needs constant supervision and monitoring then, yes it would need somebody physically there the same hours as the team. Although a good job-share may work.
If it's a team of motivated professionals who need overseeing by someone to give guidance, direction & troubleshoot then no I don't think somebody needs to be physically there the same hours. Maybe a commitment to be contactable in emergency, but given mobiles, emails etc this doesn't have to rule out part-time working.

I get the extra hours thing. I work Monday to Wednesday, regular hours. I get paid for three days a week. However, I routinely have to review docs, take phone calls, get on conference calls on thursdays and fridays and am sometimes asked to come into meetings those days too. None of which I get paid for. My full time colleagues aren't expected to work sat/sun, so they get extra hours out of me for the money.

I oversee a team of 10 people, it is possible to do that if you are part time.

There aren't many part time jobs full stop, never mind better paid ones. Whenever I do a job search only a fraction of the jobs are part time.

it would not be possible to have a part time worker overseeing a team for example would it?

It is possible to manage some teams without being present all the time. Not quite the same, but my MD has been in the US for the last eight weeks, setting up our US operation. He manages nine of us remotely, and with the time difference it means he's only 'here' for about three hours a day.

I was FT in my admin manager's job and then returned PT after mat leave. I am hoping I will be able to renegotiate different PT hours from next September when DS starts school full time so I can do the school run. All this is if I manage to hang onto the job at all. I feel very insecure right now. I don't see myself being able to get something similar on the open jobs market. The going in as a temp route looks like an option I will bear in mind though.

Maybe it's worth trying to find someone looking for similar, team up & apply for FT roles as ready made jobshare team? You could really sell that, wider experience & expertise.