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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think you can still have a successful circus without the poor f**king animals?

55 replies

CookieRookie · 07/08/2012 15:19

I'm absolutely livid at the moment Angry

I've just come back from shopping in town and have seen a circus plonked on an unfinished housing estate. There are five Asian elephants, two camels and other smaller animals grazing in an area no bigger than half an acre WITH buildings on it and vacant concrete lots so not even half an acre to graze!

I know most people are unlikely to get a chance to see these animals at such close range and in the flesh but it's just so very wrong IMO.

AIBU (1) to think there are plenty of other things a circus can host besides these poor creatures. Clowns, trapeez (sp?) artists, dirt bikes, stong men/women, pyrotechnics etc?

AIBU (2) to think it should be outlawed?

OP posts:
ToujoursPur · 07/08/2012 16:34

Are the waterparks with animals bad then? (I'm genuinely curious). I thought they were just like zoos. I know there are bad zoos and obviously something needs to be done about those but the good ones are doing vauable work aren't they? Especially in cases when the animals are endangered in the wild or at risk from poachers.

I am against exotic animals in the circus, but dogs/horses are just pets. Plenty of people keep them and work them and as long as they are treated well I have no problem with it.

MaryHansack · 07/08/2012 16:38

YANBU but are you in the UK? I would have thought that would be illegal.
IN recent years Dcs and I have been to the Russian and Chinese state circuses, plus a couple of smaller ones, not an animal in sight.

ripsishere · 07/08/2012 16:39

I would no more go and see waterpark animal shows, than I would an animal circus.
Imagine being a whale with a vast area to swim in, then imagine being put into a tiny (relatively speaking) tank. Vile and foul.

VolAuVent · 07/08/2012 16:39

RSCPA Campaign: The Big Stop

"But aren't wild animals in circuses banned?

In March 2012 the government in Westminster announced a phase-in ban on wild animals in circuses in England with a lisencing scheme to be impilimented in the interim. However, the RSPCA have serious concerns as the government have yet to make a firm commitment to a deadline for a ban and the documents outlining the proposals are peppered with inconsistencies and contradictions."

missymoomoomee · 07/08/2012 16:41

Rich Teas, if you do some research on it you will see these animals are sedated basically 24 hours a day, thats downright cruel, its not being too precious at all, there is no way you can keep a tiger or an elephant, or any wild animal, travel from place to place have them involved in public displays and treat them in a humane way.

Cookie I went to Thailand to visit my brother a few years back and went to a pretty famous place to have a look around there was a queue of people waiting to get their pictures taken with a tiger who was chained up on a stone block. I spoke to one of the staff there and he told me the tiger was given medication to make him docile. When it was time for the tiger to go away he was hit repeatedly with a metal pole and shoved in a tiny little cage until it was time for the next lot of photos.This upset me so much that I started volunteering for a couple of animal charities and doing more research into what goes on both here and abroad. It makes me feel sick that I put money into the pockets of these animal abusers by paying to get into that place, but, like you, I was pretty unaware. To be perfectly honest there isn't any notable differences between these circus's and the place I visited.

Original poster
CookieRookie · 07/08/2012 16:42

RichT I can't believe you said that Sad Saved from a worse fate? That justifies current cruelty?

That's just a very sad way to see it but I'm not interested in a bunfight. You are entitled to your opinion however skewed it may seem to me. Will agree to strongly disagree.

OP posts:
JumpingThroughHoops · 07/08/2012 16:43

I havent seen a circus with an animal in for years - and I go to them all - with the exception of Zippos, which has horses and budgies. I stalk follow Zippos on FB and they did a feed 2 days ago that Scotland now has a blanket ban on performing horses.

CrispyCod · 07/08/2012 16:46

YANBU

Get in touch with your local animal rights group and join them to campaign outside.

missymoomoomee · 07/08/2012 16:50

Crispy there are more laws about protesting than there are about the abuse of these animals sadly. You can't protest in a way that will directly effect their business, you can't approach people going in, you can't stand directly outside their business....the list goes on and on.

BlueBirdsNest · 07/08/2012 17:03

i always kind of was on the side of the animal when they went a bit 'nuts' and lashed out at the people (ring masters) who were trying to control the

Saying that I quite like the zoo , even although it messes with my head, but I like seeing the animals....i just wish they were happy

BlueBirdsNest · 07/08/2012 17:06

I wonder if anyone watching the Olympics equatrain events feels this way?

I think most of those horses sad and unhappy

Lueji · 07/08/2012 17:11

Of course not!

What would the acts be? Plants growing? Bacteria dividing? Funghi moulding?

I like trapeze acts and can't see it being performed even by jumping beans.

:o

More seriously, it depends on the animal. Dogs and horses can enjoy doing acts, I suppose.
But then we would have to get rid of all association with animals.
I mean... keeping a cat at home? A dog on a leash? Crikey!

GhostShip · 07/08/2012 17:13

No we wouldn't Lueji. There's a bit of a difference between keeping animals* as pets, and using them for work.

*none exotics

sagesponsoredbymacdonalds · 07/08/2012 17:17

YADNBU op! Near my house (abroad) there is one ATM starring a hippo, tigers, camels, llamas and God knows what else. It is 30+degrees here in the shade, they have hardly any space and I have refused to take the dc anywhere near it.

The Chinese state circus is animal free and i loved it.

RichTeas · 07/08/2012 17:25

Well elephants are known to be social animals and actually "like" to have tasks to do. It's not that different from having say a sheep dog. I'm not necessarily saying all circus animals are ok, if big cats are sedated of mistreated, that's obviously not ok. But what about horses or donkeys or monkeys. It doesn't hurt to have a few of them in a circus.

Agree that Cirque du Soleil is fantastic and have been to see it. But you don't get Cirque on the village green, you get a bunch of bloated Easter acrobats and some crap jugglers.

PS. Going crazy about animals "rights" is not a mark of civilisation, it's just misplaced sentiments. All the people barking their heads off about how enlightened we are, are then running off to eat factory produced meat as if animals were somehow not part of the process. Hypocrisy if you ask me.

GhostShip · 07/08/2012 17:30

Right so taking an elephant from its home in the wild, and it's herd, making it live in a cage, sedating it, forcing it to do tasks in front of a massive crowd is the same as having a domesticated dog such as a sheepdog, which generally live with the farmer as a family pet.

Are you deliberately being obtuse?

MollyMurphy · 07/08/2012 17:34

I think Olympic equestrian events and the circus have nothing to do with each other...? It is my impression those horses are treated better than most people.

Lueji · 07/08/2012 17:44

Yes, ghost, because animals being kept as pets is perfectly natural and they are allowed to roam free.
Are they not?

GhostShip · 07/08/2012 17:48

It's a completely different thing. There's nothing cruel about keeping a pet correctly. We don't take the dogs out of the natural environment, we don't overwork them, we don't make them perform for crowds. We love them. We cherish them.

NervousAt20 · 07/08/2012 17:50

YANBU

Original poster
CookieRookie · 07/08/2012 17:56

I've contacted an animal rights group and have discovered they were successful in getting one county council to ban all animal-act circuses in their county. Not much you'd think BUT it's only a very recent development so there is hope it will drive other councils to do the same. I've arranged to talk to a co-ordinator tomorrow and get advice on how to get things going in our county. The ISPCA have said they will send an inspector to check on the welfare of the animals to make sure they are clean, well fed, watered and have no injuries. Completely miss the point about the space and fear they are subjected to but apparently that's all that can be done within the law.

I'm more emotional than I am articulate, never was cut out for the school debate team so I'm going to leave it here and hope I can put my anger and frustration to better use by being a bit more proactive in RL.

Thanks for all you thoughts.

OP posts:
babybythesea · 07/08/2012 18:07

Well, you are right in as much as some animals 'like' to be busy. Elephants and primates are among them.
But that doesn't, shouldn't, include performing tricks for our benefit.
Their care the rest of the time is majorly substandard. Animals thrive on security, knowing where they are, what is happening around them etc.
I've worked in zoos for years. Animals moved from one enclosure to another undergo huge stress - yet this is the entire existance of a circus animal. No way could the enclosures ever be big enough, and that's without factoring in all the travel which presumably means even smaller spaces.

We spend a lot of time in zoos (and I mean a lot) trying to keep animals in conditions which resemble their natural ones, and trying to give the animals every opportunity to display natural behaviours. This is what keeps them 'busy'. (I would like to state at this point that not all zoos are good but an enrichment programme should be in place in any self-respecting zoo). Obviously, with respect to space, it's going to be near on impossible for some animals but even so, you can provide food in a way that mimics the wild, you can provide a social group that gives an animal the same sort of stimulation etc etc. A circus just isn't designed for this. It is designed to ensure the animals do things that are not within the normal range of their behaviour. It has been well documented that animals are ill-treated.

Aside from this, there are serious conservation aspects to consider. Many many species of primate are endangered in the wild. If you use them in a circus, you promote the idea that they would make good pets. And they really, really don't. They become aggressive and develop major behavioural problems. The pet trade is a major threat though to wild primates - people will kill whole troops of adult monkeys but particularly adult, breeding age females, to obtain an infant. Which may end up in your circus, and which you then pay to see thus perpetuating the trade. Gibbons, gorillas, chimps, lemurs, squirrel monkeys, capuchins, tamarins, orangutans ... you want any more in the list?

Saying 'people wouldn't see them otherwise' is tantamount to saying that animals only exist for us. They don't. They exist in their own right and would do very well without us. If someone has a right to something, they also have a responsibility for it. I read once that you can best tell a person's character not by the way he treats his equals, but by those who are weaker than him.

freddiefrog · 07/08/2012 18:13

YANBU!

I took my kids to a fantastic circus a few weeks ago.

Kids loved every single minute of it. Clowns were hilarious, acts were amazing

Not a single animal involved

QuacksForDoughnuts · 07/08/2012 18:17

YANBU!

RichTeas · 07/08/2012 18:22

Oh dear Dr Doolittle appears to know what the dear animals have on their minds. They'd like nothing more to stay in their own comfortable enclosure and not have to perform any tricks for those dreaded humans. And if you think a monkey is cute, suddenly you take responsibility for primate murder all over the tropical globe. Trust animal experts to blow everything out of proportion and make ridiculous false accusations.

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