to think we shouldnt allow countries that do this to compete?

[elizaregina]

www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/chinese-gymnastics-kids-training-with-tears-sweat-dreams.html

If young children are plucked out from thier families and put into a torturous regime day and night for years and years and years with the idea of achiveing greatness for china - should we allow them to compete at all?

Isnt this really allowing slaves to compete> They havant chosen this!!!

Isnt this like buying a puppy from a farm - arnt we encouraging more of the same?

Federica Pellegrini, who is the current WR holder for 200m freestyle improved by 7 seconds on her own PB to break the record.

I think Boris Johnson could have been a fantastic ballet dancer had he been put in a special school from age three.

I think I could be an amazing pianist if I was forced to play nothing but piano from age three.

And unwittingly drugged of course as well with drugs that would improve my performance.

Turn this on its head.

Imagine you are the girl in question, and you've worked your ass off to get to be the at the Olympics. And your dream comes true and you win.

And then everyone else turns around and says your a cheat based on your nationality and the fact that you have improved a lot (something that British experts have said is possible and common at her age).

Is that right? Is it fair that we immediately cry foul?

The Olympics is about sport not politics. And unless we can prove that an individual athlete is cheating, we have to give the benefit of the doubt; not simply be frankly rather racist in saying "oh well what do you expect from the Chinese?". Innocent until proven guilty is a bit of a corner stone of our precious democracy, and yet here are people being judge and jury based on no evidence.

If you look at a lot of other athletes from around the world, its fair to say that many from nations around the world have had pushy parents and had no childhood as they were all busy training from an early age too. Its part of becoming the best in the world unfortunately.

Not to forget that you are talking about the most populous nation on earth. Just to represent their country, they have to beat more people than anyone else. It doesn't take a genius to work out that breeds a culture where an obsession with training is going to go to its very extreme.

China definitely does have its issues with human rights, and I don't want to take away from that. However, I'm a little cautious on this particular subject. Why? Partly because there is just such a culture of achieving and pushing to achieve which is very much at odds with our British way of fitting in and not standing out. It doesn't necessarily make it wrong - more than we struggle to understand it. And partly, because I feel it just as unsporting to fall into the trap of accusing anyone of cheating because of our dislike of a country's politics rather than credit an individual for performance.

Unless you encourage the ideals of sportsmanship and democratic ideals, why would the population of any country with a questionable culture of ethics see it as a better way and a culture to be appaulded, and be of significant enough value to them to adopt instead?

Good post Hmm.

The children looks mostly happy to me, in those pictures. It is heart-rending to see them when they don't look happy, but I bet if you took snaps of any UK playground, you'd photograph plenty of tears!

Btw, about people looking happy/unhappy ... different cultures have different ideas of what facial expressions mean. I don't know much about China but I know in Russia (which someone mentioned, saying the gymnasts looked unusually unhappy to lose), a solemn face is more normal, and so are tears.

The Russian male judo fighter, after he won, dashed up to his male coach and lept into his arms. You wouldn't see Brits doing that, either - it's just a different set of conventions about how you express what you're feeling in your expressions or your gestures.

''And unwittingly drugged of course as well with drugs that would improve my performance.''

Are these the same magic invisible drugs that the Chinese swimmer was taking that don't show up on any drugs tests?

Again I ask, who is this ''we''?

My BIL is an ex-international at a sport that China does well at. He started going to training camps in China at the age of 10. He said three things about it:-

1. The camps are hard. Very hard. If men didn't perform well in training or they thought they weren't concentrating they would be hit with sticks on their back. Women would also be hurt enough to make them cry if they didn't do well. (Sorry can't say what was done without revealing the sport.)

1. They all wanted to be there and fought like hell to keep their place.

1. BIL loved the focus and discipline of the place where playing the sport was all that mattered.

So make of that what you wish.

Incidentally there are facts about my BIL's childhood that would probably horrify some mumsnetters. Plane to China with a coach and three adult players aged 13, missing more school than he went to in his GCSE year (and he was a very academic child), travelling abroad alone every weekend from the age of 15, having his dad sitting outside the school with the engine running as he took his last GCSE exam as he had 40 mins to get to the airport to make it to the World championships.

But it was all his choice and he has no regrets.

I thought this was going to be about North Korea, which still has labour camps which children are born into and kept as slaves, often murdered for imagined transgressions.

I do not understand why countries with such appalling human rights records are allowed to compete.

This thread is focusing on a detail, but I think the question is pertinent.

Is it not because they have the idea (which may be OTT idealistic) they can effect change by making it a competition people want to be involved in? So it may be a fine line between banning and not?

I don't really know, just I know that the committee put pressure on Saudi Arabia to enter female competitors, and that could potentially have a big effect.

South Africa was banned for nearly 30 years. Why not North Korea, Saudi et al?

I really don't get it.

I know, I do wonder.

People will say because NK has scary military capabilities and Saudi has oil.

Maybe it is that simple - or maybe they didn't think the ban worked quite right? I don't know.

I don't know where you'd draw the line, too, between countries that are obviously terrible, and ones that are becoming much less scary than they used to be but are still quite dubious (Russia).

The thing is, they clearly draw the line somewhere. it's not as if they have a no-ban policy.

I wonder what exactly a government needs to do to it's people to warrant being banned from the olympics, as it seems that the threshold for exclusion simply hasn't been met. It's mind-boggling.

Its not it's.

Illiterate iPhone.

Have they banned any countries this year?

I agree, they should set out rules, IMO.

I am sure it will come out in due course that the Chinese have cheated, again at many sports this Olympics. they are just becoming better at dodging the dope tests or using masking compounds or stuff to clear it from the blood. it;s in their nature to use fair means or foul . Cruel and unsporting, completely missing the point of the Oympics,

"it's in their nature"?

It's in their nature?

Fuck me.

The rewards for winning a medal here are very high. It's a route out of poverty or a different life for these children. Not condoning the practices but it's hardly on a level with gendercide in the country, the regime in North Korea or the horrible abuses against women's rights in Saudi etc.

did feel bad for the Chinese team today, especially at the end when they showed shots of one gymnast having her running mascara cleaned up. That's a lot of pressure for a 16 year old

You have to be 18 to compete in gymnastics at the Olympics.

You have to be 18 to compete in gymnastics at the Olympics.

No you dont. The youngest British gymnast is 15, and most of the Chinese and USA's team were 16.

Umm we have a 15 year old in our squad sashh so that's not true

Actually, Kyla Ross (USA) is only 15 too.

I find the generic bashing by some posters of china very disturbing. It is racism. Pure and simple. Yes, there are human rights abuses that need to be addressed but assuming competitive athletes are either tortured or cheating is ridiculous. For a start, no matter how hard an athlete is pushed hy his/her parents or coaches, he/she has to want success. Talent and hard work are only two of the requirements for success - a string desire to win and a deep belief that you can us essential too.

Dh finds all the Brits losing and then happily saying it was just so wonderful to compete very strange. His point being that surely to get to the Olympics in the first place you havd to be hungry to win? If you don't really want to win, why turn up? Countries like China seem yo havd this attitude. The US has always had it.

The rule on age for gymnastics is that you have to turn 16 in the year the Olympics is held, hence a couple of 15 year olds who will be 16 later this year.

Have they changed the rules then? Sorry I thought they made it 18 a few years ago because they were getting younger and younger.

OK I've been and checked, it is 16 in the year of the olympics, so the 15 year olds will be 16 this year.